Battle of the HW swarmers: Marciano, Tua, Tyson, Frazier

Please.......sue your brain for non support, at least you have a excuse why you cannot think before you post.

You need a little more than a left hook to beat Tyson, fact not fiction, further, Tua was never ever able to pick up a ABC belt while contemporary B/C level fighters like him had no problem doing so and even surviving title defenses............

Nobody beats Prime Mike toe to toe. Period. You need to box, jab and clinch (a lot) to get a slight chance. Height and true heavyweight size help too.

Marciano and Frazier are going to be re plays of Trevor Berbick, brave , proud and lots of heart but totally outgunned .

Tua, lol, once he tastes body/uppercut combos and straight rights he will clam up like in the Lewis fight and will fight just enough to survive so he can go home for the waiting 20000 calories dinner.plate.

 

Suzieq.

You say i have a high opinion of Dempsey, and not of Walcott and Louis?

I said that Jersey Joe ain't beating Foreman (nothing wrong with that). And i have the highest respect for Joe Louis as him and Ali in my opinion are the greatest Heavys of all time. Find one bad comment Suzieq that i have made about Joe Louis.

You say Marciano would beat Frazier and Tua and draw with Dempsey. To me thats also having a high opinion of Rocky but i respect it. Dempsey i believe from 1919-1923 was better than Marciano.

"Skill department is even." I believe Dempsey had more natural gifts than Marciano and had more skill, a prime Dempsey never looked as crude as Marciano.

 

Take the Marciano from the Don Cockell fight (1950's), and compare him to the Dempsey of the Willard fight (1919). Who looked more skilled?

Put Marciano in with willard, i don't think Rocky could do the job on Jess that Dempsey did.

Dempsey was 6'1", 77 inch reach, those are advantages he has over Marciano without mentioning his greater speed and natural ability. Remember where Dempsey came from, he was a natural fighter. Dempsey had a bigger frame than Marciano and would be better than Rock in the modern era, i believe Jack could weigh at least 210+ and be fast. Marciano? I don't think so.

Dempsey could move better than Rock, and had faster hands. Remember how many first round KO's Jack Dempsey has?

 

19 second KO is hard to duplicate, just ask Moorer.

 

When did Tyson ever have a mental breakdown because he was forced to go 12?

 

I met and stood with Tua at two boxing writers dinners and was blown away by his physical aura ... the man was like a square block of concrete ... he had the chin to go to war with Tyson ... there is a reason Tyson never fought Tua or Mercer ... they were bad match ups for him ...

 

Tyson personally picked Mercer as one of his comeback fights but the fight never came off. Mercer would have been a good test for Tyson if he was serious about boxing. I dont think we're comparing the post prison Tyson here, he was a completely different boxer than in his prime 86-90. I agree Tua had the chin and fire power to go to war with Tyson, but Mike was far to fast and defensively skilled to lose to Tua in his prime.

 

Thats not a valid comparison you're using Dempsey vs Willard which is possibly Jack best performance and Rocky vs Cockell which probably Marciano worst performance. Its like using Frazier vs Foster and Tyson vs Douglas doesn't give an accurate account on who was more skilled. If you're gonna compare use both guys best performance. Also Dempsey was some what of a giant killer his speed made it easier for him to beat big guys like Williard while he had more trouble with smaller guys like Gibbons and Brennan.

 

They heard the final bell, but with exception to maybe Tillis, the fights were one sided beatings, unlike Tua who was trailing in most of his fights. Dont forget Rahman, he really won the second fight and was well ahead before the controversial stoppage in the first one. Also Fres basically had him beat before getting caught too. These are guys with exception of Fres Oquendo that didnt move all that much, and boxed from a flat footed stance. I used Lewis as an example because he reminded me of an 80's fighter in that fight up on his toes, and moving the entire fight.
As far as Tyson, maybe watch his first career before prison. He was a well developed fighter. He worked the body very well, could knock you out with the right or the left, and had insane speed for a big guy.

 

Minotauro.

What do you think is Rocky's best performance?

If you say v Walcott was his best, then it still proves my point. Rocky got outboxed for 13 rounds. It that fight he never showed the natural ability that Dempsey had. Marciano showed things that people also aplied to Dempsey, e.g. chin, heart, determination etc. But Rocky never ever showed the skills that Dempsey showed against Willard in beating bigger men. The side to side movement on the balls of his feet, jumping in and out. Skills like that could help Jack in the modern era with 10-20 pounds extra.

People talk about Haye today having a chance, but Haye does not haver Dempsey's chin in my opinion, he is just taller and wider, i wouldn't even say he is quicker than Dempsey or has more heart than Dempsey.

 

Walcott was ten times the better fighter than Willard though. Walcott was a other level than the 37 year old, retire, unretire, out of shape Willard was.

I dont think Dempsey could do to Walcott what he did to Willard. Willard got the beat down for being old, out of shape and the rules of the day. And not defended himself. No slipping and ducking on Willard's part. I think Marciano would do about the same perhaps. Not as fast as a start though, but perhhaps get the job done in 4 to 5 rounds.

 

Joe Louis fight in 1951, rocky looked great vs a 6'2 214lb old but still dangerous opponent. I never though Rockys Speed, Power, or Movement looked better. I honestly believe the 37 year old 6'2 215lb joe louis of 1951 would have easily defeated the 1919 37 year old fat jess willard. Firpo would have got easily outboxed by Louis too.

The only fighter Dempsey fought at the skill level of walcott was Tunney, and Dempsey lost 19 out of 20 rounds against him. Even if you include sharkey to that mix, dempsey still got easily outboxed the first 6 rounds. So please apply this standard to both men.

What exactley are you implying with "natural ability"? Did Rocky not so you enough natural ability when he went 11-0 with 10 knockouts against top 10 rated men by ring magazine? or did dempsey show you enough of his natural ability the way he never fought any good black fighters?

Well Dempsey never showed the skills that marciano showed in being able to beat good black heavyweights. Sorry, but its true. Dempsey beat a wide variety of big men, yes(albeit most unskilled big men). But marciano holds the clear single best win out of the two against a big man, Marcianos win over Joe Louis. Louis holds fundamentals and skills the big men of dempseys day did no possess.

Also you talk as if Dempsey was perfect against big men. Luis Firpo a very crude banger, put dempsey on the floor 3 times and knocked him out of the ring and jack needed to be saved by the typewriter. This kind of stuff NEVER happened to marciano.

Yes I agree, and Dempsey would do great in a modern era. But there is where your selling Marciano short. While he did not have those skills dempsey had, you have to appreciate marcianos own style....Marciano was devastating in his low crouch. Not only was he very ackward to hit, but he knew how to counter with deadly viscous blows from it. This is why marciano would be difficult against Big modern men, he could wade in from his crouch and in his crouch rock would weave, roll, duck punches in his crouch, he would move his torsoe all around in athletic unpredictable angles that would make him

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...most of the big men in modern era did not have the balance or athletisicm to reach down and hit him from those ackward positions without leaving themselves wide open for marciano to spring up from his crouch and counter with 3-4 punch combinations, and if that didnt work he would just keep throwing one at a time non stop anywhere and everywhere breaking you down. Rock was very adapt, and he was a lil cutie in there the way he never chased an opponent down, but maticulously and methodically crept at his opponent slowly stalking them and waiting for the opening...Then once had his opponent hurt, he would spring all over them like a Tiger, and that is when he would never give you any room to breathe and he would never stop throwing punches. Not to mention One Punch Power, Strength, Chin, were other attributes needed agaisnt modern big men and marciano rates top in those categories regardless of size.

Isn't that fair. Gee, lets pick a fighters worst performance past his prime and compare it to another fighters best performance at his peak and then try to make a valid point. Hmmmm.

Ok, I hate to break it to you. But Willard was 37, he hadnt fought in 3 years, and he was 25lb overweight. These are facts right here. Willard was not a live opponent, he was a big old washed up overstuffed punching bag waiting to be handed a beating. Whether or not marciano would have taken him out there that early is inconclusive, but I can assure you marciano would have knocked him out and would not have needed 7 plus knockdowns and a corner retirement to put him away.

In my honest opinion, I prefer the way Marciano slowly dissects a big man in 6'2 214lb joe louis on film away in 8 rounds...Much more impressive because in this fight marciano had to deal with a live opponent who for a big man actually had good fundamentals great jab and solid skills enough to make marciano have to show skill to beat him. Not a big punching bag like Willard or a Very crude Firpo who btw knocked Dempsey down 3 times including out of the ring. Understand?

Tyson was only 5'10 with 72" reach, that didnt hold him back vs Taller Bigger men. Just in case your interested in statistics, Marciano knocked out everyman he ever faced above 200lb. I believe his record something around 11-0 with 11 knockouts men above 200lb. He suffered no knockdowns against men above 200lb.

I dont understand where your getting this natural ability from. In terms of natural athletic ability, marciano has the clear edge. marciano was a near proffessional baseball player and was an excellent football player. Marciano did movement in his crouch that many fighters could not duplicate because they dont have the athleticism. Dempsey did have greater speed and much better footwork which is one of the reasons why i think he will give marciano such a tough fight, but marciano I think had the edge in both strength, chin which are very important in a match against two sluggers. Also the later this fight goes, the more of an advantage rocky has.

Now your just jumping to wild conclusions without any evidence to support your theory. I have talked with Rocky's family personally and they all told me Rocky naturally weighed well over 200lb. While Jack may or may not have been able to carry 210lb, we dont know that. What we do know is that during his prime years, he weighed in no more than marciano weighed. Jack may have superior height, but Marciano has superior bigger bone structure. Think Tua and Tyson how they were able to carry 220lb, thats marciano. Dempsey may have been holyfield in that regard to carry extra weight, but marciano is tyson.

Its pretty easy to score alot of first round knockouts when you refuse to face black fighters. What happened the one time dempsey did fight a black fighter? got his ribs broken in a 10 round draw vs john lester johnson, and he wasnt even one of the better black fighters of the day. Jenette also stepped in the ring with him in 1918, and Dempsey immediately took his ball and went home.

You are talking movement here, I think we should be discussing ability to cut off the ring. Dempsey was no better at cutting the ring off than Rock. If you say footwork, Jack has some of the best footwork in history so he has the edge there. One thing.....Jack also was at his weakest point when his opponent swarmed him. When jack's opponent was on the attack, Dempsey on film struggled defensivley. Firpo clocked him, sharkey hurt him badly, 167lb carpentier buckled his knees, brennan buzzed him, Fat Willie Meehan actually beat him by clogging up dempsey

 

I fully concur,

Willard was off for 3 years and working in a rodeo during that period. Additionally, he had won the title over many rounds against a shot Jack Johnson in a fight that some still say was a dive. Lastly, he was a monster among much smaller men for the period. Willard's ascent to the title was half circumstantial half fluke in my opinion. At the time Dempsey actually fought him, I'm not even sure that the guy was among one of the 10 best heavys around, despite being the recognized champion...