Frazier vs other ATG

I would add Liston to the List off possible losses, but agree with most of this good call!

 

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I respect Joe Frazier and give him a fair chance against a lot of fighters too, but there are several points that I disagree with in this post. For one thing, your comment about there being a huge difference between the Frazier who fought Foreman in '73 as opposed to the Frazier who reigned in the late 60's, does not sit well with me. Most people concur that the very best rendering of Joe Frazier was in 1971 against Muhammad Ali. He was 27 years of age, in tremendous shape and hungrier than ever as he considered Ali his chief rival and by far the biggest fight of his career. Do the math, this fight was only two years -NOT HALF A DECADE removed from the Foreman fight. The Frazier of the late 60's was taken the distance twice and decked twice by Oscar Bonavena as well as trailing on the scorecards early against Quarry and Ellis. This is hardly what I would call displaying a shroud of invincibility. The reality of the matter is that Foreman was the first genuine great slugger that Frazier faced and he lost with ease. Now, I agree with you ( and have before on this issue ), that Frazier was declining. He was carrying extra weight that he did not need to be carrying. He had developed high blood pressure and was now turning his attention to the other areas of his life outside of boxing. On the flipside however, he was 29 years of age, the reigning heavyweight champion and would still face Ali in two more gut wrenching battles following the Foreman fight, and would even be greater trouble for Foreman in their second meeting three years later. My conclusion here is that while Frazier was past his best against Foreman, he was far from being shot. His loss to was a result of him being poorly matched stylistically and physically against a particular opponent.. I would not have picked a '67, '68. '69, '70, or '71 Frazier to beat Foreman or even give him much trouble for that matter. Sure, maybe instead of two rounds, he might have lasted 5 or 6 and landed a few decent shots, but being two or three years younger and maybe 8 or 9 lbs lighter is not going to turn the tables of totally getting your ass kicked to winning all together....

 

Exactly, many people don't understood that Joe had taken a lot of punishment over his career and it started to catch up with him in 1972 and 1973. He was technically 29 but was all ready past his prime when he met Foreman.

People like to compare him with Ali when he was 29; the difference was that Ali didn't take not nearly as much punishment as Frazier up to that age.

 

I am not maintaining that Frazier was still peak when he fought Foreman. The argument being made by some here is that he was " way past it " against Foreman, and I tend to disagree. You speak of the helacious beating that he took against Ali in FOTC. Did he not battle Ali through two more similar battles over the next 4 years? There are some who believe that the Thrilla in Manilla took more out of both men than did the Fight of the Century. It is reasonable to conclude that Frazier was declining against Foreman and that if he was 100% that he might have lasted a few more rounds and landed some decent shots. It is not reasonable however, to claim that he was completely past it, and that if he wasn't that he would have totally beaten Foreman.. This is an issue that requires both a certain amount of balance as well as common sense. Frazier's loss to Foreman was more of a stylistic issue rather than a matter of one man being past prime.

 

I agree with you to a certain extent Mr. Magoo. Respect to you for your post and opinion.

You are correct. Frazier wasn't WAY past his prime against Foreman as I have been guilty and others on this forum of saying in past discussions. What can be said is that there is a significant difference between the Frazier of 1967 - FOTC and the Frazier who showed up to fight Foreman in 1973. Anyone who doesn't see the difference in Frazier's conditioning is more blind than Ray Charles, Stevie Wonder and Helen Keller combined. In fact, Ali supporters attribute some of his greatness to the condition he left Frazier in, and the fact that both were never the same fighter after the FOTC.

Frazier's loss to Foreman wasn't entirely a stylistic issue. Manuel Ramos, albeit not possesing the power and strength of the fighter that Foreman was, got knocked out in two rounds by a Frazier body shot. Foreman had considerable help in 1973 from Arthur Mercante and any other referee would not have allowed Foreman to use the illegal wrestling tactics to keep Frazier away from him. Within the rules, a fighter cannot push or shove off, and punch underneath while holding the opponent's shoulders. The only way a fighter can get separation is to move his feet or punch.
Ali tried these tactics against Frazier in Manilla and Carlos Padilla wouldn't let him do any of them, consistently slapping Ali's gloves away from Frazier's neck and shoulders, while warning him between the rounds.

I'd bet on 1967 - FOTC conditioned Frazier to survive Foremans early bombs and give him problems after the middle rounds. It's not out of the ordinary to bet on this Frazier beating Foreman because endurance was never one of George's strengths, surprisingly until his second career. Still, Foreman's power and punch output diminishes as the fight goes on whereas Frazier's dominant rounds are usually after the first three.

 

The dominant Champion of the 60's? Frazier did not hold the unified title till 1970:huhThe dominant Champion of the 60's was undoubtedly Ali.
Bottom line Frazier met ONE REALLY BIG PUNCHER AND HE WAS KOD BY HIM TWICE.Nobody kos this version of Frazier,well I think Dempsey ,Louis,Liston,Marciano.all ko him.

 

Frazier loses to louis, marciano, dempsey, and liston but beats tunney, charles, walcott, holmes

 

Linear champs since 1950? I'd pretty clearly favor him over:
Charles
Walcott
Patterson
Johansson
Spinks (I)
Spinks (II)
Douglas
Briggs

I would make him a more marginal favorite over Holmes, Holyfield, and Bowe, and put him at even odds or below against Liston, Ali, Foreman, Tyson and Lewis.

 

When Frazier landed his left hook on Foreman in their first fight Foreman ignored it.Frazier was a one trick pony he knew only ONE way to fight ,keep coming forward.Frazier had good head movement but he was NOT especially elusive, one glance at the photos of his fights with Ali show that ,he looked like a gargoyle after them.His ducking /crouching style led him straight into the path of Foreman's uppercuts and allways would,Foreman got away with pushing Frazier out to the optimum reach for his big looping shots TRUE, but when Frazier got inside ,where he ALLWAYS needed to be he was thumped with uppercuts,Foreman was stronger and hit harder , the few big punches Frazier landed were ignored by George so basically a swarmer meeting a very big bomber who has size ,reach and power advantages is in for a hiding.ps Ramos quit.