Frazier reflects on Thrilla, Ali

Ali did seem to mature a bit, got stronger and punched a bit harder. His best stoppages, i.e. Bonavena (only man to do so), Lyle and Foreman were all when he was a bit older.

Ali might dance for a round longer during his peak, because speed kills, but pressure kills speed and Frazier applied relentless pressure. Let's not forget Ali vs Chuvalo I.... he spent a lot of times on the ropes, forced, and took a vicious body beating. Frazier would do one better and beat Ali, although he'd always get ruined himself in the process.

 

Perhaps, but Dempsey Tunney(I and II) and Tyson Holyfiled were not close fights, Hell, I belive Tyson won 1 or 2 rounds of there first fight, and reports (And film of both fights) say Dempsey lost 19 out of 20.(I did give Dempsey round 4 of fight 1)

Ali Frazier was a close fight, back and forth action. There relly was no CLEAR winner so to speak outside of the knockdown, and round 11.
It was Ali, than Fraizer, Than Ali. amazing fight.

The other 2 fights it was just Tunney Holyfiled.
So a better "Prime" Ali I suppose has a better arugment than either Tyson or Dempsey has in regards to there counterparts.

 

Loved the HBO documentary. Highly recommended for those who haven't seen it yet.

 

That was my point.

 

I've never seen him punch harder than he did against Williams. He also hit Folley with some devastating blows.

Against Lyle he was certainly a bit stronger, perhaps punched somewhat harder to, but he was 226 lbs for that fight. Against Bonavena and Frazier he was still around 212-215 lbs. I don't see any way you get more out of the same body mass after a long lay-off. Doesn't happen.

Frazier's pressure would always be tough to handle, but Ali would have the stamina to dance for several rounds more. Hell, he did in the rematch.

Chuvalo gives a hint of how the fight would have turned out, but lets' not forget that Ai's preparation was poor due to him having to turn up at hearings and what not concerning his stand on the draft. Still he went 15 rds at a high pace, took a beating to the body and had enough left in the tank to really turn it on in the last round.

Chuvalo himself said that Ali was noticeably slower with less stamina when they met one year after FOTC. He said he kept a lower pace even though it was a 12 rounder the second time. Patterson also said Ali was better the first time they fought.

Seeing that Ali only needed to win two more rounds to win FOTC I think the degree of decline that for example Chuvalo and Patterson noted made the difference.

 

We'll never know for sure.

Ali left the scene at his peak in 1967.

A three and a half year layoff with just two tune-ups, combined with the decline from 25 to 29, combined further with the fact that the fight was close (8-7, 8-6-1, at most 9-6) tells me that if Ali had not been exiled and this fight had taken place three years earlier, IMO he would have beaten Frazier.

 

was that the one that was on channel 4 in UK

 

I thoroughly agree.

 

:good

 

Totally disagree. Sometimes styles make fights. Frazier may always be the Yin to Ali's Yang.

 

Especially in the 2 losses.

atsch

 

But he wasn't (at least not enough) two times out of three. Such a sure statement on such a weak basis...

 

He said "MAY" always be, not exactly the "sure" statement you're referring to. And i see no reason why Frazier would not be Ali's kryptonite. Watch the Chuvalo fight.

 

Well, he started with saying that he "totally disagreed" with Cuchulains statement, so that made it seem like a pretty strong statement. But puting "may" in there is somewhat moderating it to be fair.

As far as I know everyone agree that Frazier always would pose Ali with great difficulties, partly because of styles but mostly because he was a great fighter. So would Marciano IMO.

And yes, Chuvalo's perfomance strengthens this view. But let's not get ahead of ourselves when using the Chuvalo fight as an example. He gave Ali one of his toughest fights pre exile, but Ali still won almost every round without having to "go to the well" really and without being very well prepared. Frazier would have to do MUCH, MUCH better to actually beat a fully prepared Ali on the very top of his game.

And the bottom line is that Ali beat Frazier two times out of three while arguably being further past his prime on all occasions. One have to wriggle a lot to get out of this simple fact. If Tyson had avenged the initial loss to Holyfield two times would there have been any question as to who was the better man? Or if Dempsey had done the same to Tunney?

Hell, not many would pick Walcott over Louis in a prime for prime match-up, and he could be argued being 1-1 with Louis.

I'm kind of bemused why the Ali-Frazier veers so much from the normal assesment in this regard.