Who would win a fight between Homes & Marciano where both fighters were 49-0. Both at the end of thier careers, but still undefeated. Who could have had the better chance to go an even 50-0 and then retire.
Both were fading at that point... I'd really favor Holmes if he doesn't come in unmotivated. He was a true 15 round fighter. That long jab tears Marciano apart at long range, controls the fight enough for Holmes to do what he needs to do. And if Marciano gets in close? Holmes could diffuse Marciano's grinding body attack on the inside fairly well with that great uppercut. Holmes was a great in-fighter. Dealing with Rocky's great chin? Even at well over 40 Holmes was capable of going the distance with the ridculously tough McCall. And in Holme's prime look at his 15 to nothing demo job on Cobb. Holmes also has a better chin then Walcott. And if he is knocked down by a murderous shot, you better believe he's going to get up. Marciano hit very hard but he didn't have much on Shaver's.
Rocky was relentless and he had the right hand that caused Larry so many problems. Marciano had many versions of that punch and a hook to add, combine that with a terrific work rate and I see a Marciano KO
I think Larry would have had alot of trouble leaning down trying to hit rocky in his crouch with a clean jab...I mean rocky rolled at all different angles and movements with his torso down low. It will be a factor, but not a major factor I might add, Larry Holmes was susceptible to a right hand his whole career, i mean he never got rid of the flaw. Marciano will be able to land his sunday punch in this fight more than once. Sure, but at the same time Rocky has more leverage than larry on the inside. He is going to be whacking larry everywhere, to the head body arms shoulders all with mean intentions. Thats going to wear larry down. Larrys uppercut will score, but rocky will connect on big right hands and leaping left hooks that will even things up. Larry Holmes has so much heart! He is very underrated in the heart department, the man's heart bailed him out of trouble more than once. However, One thing that Larry holmes had a bad hait of was trying to brawl his way out of trouble when hurt/dazed. He always did this, no matter who it was. I think this will be his downfall against a Marciano. Shavers hit hard, but he was not the finisher or cumalitive puncher rocky was. the only finisher holmes fought in the class of marciano was Mike Tyson, who demolished him in 4. Now I do think Larry presents alot of stylistic problems for Rocky. Rocky had problem with fast sharp counterpunches from Lastarza and Ezzard charles and holmes is taller and bigger than those two but punches in similiar style, No doubt holmes straight fast punches are going to do a number on Rockys face, but at the same time rocky presents alot of stylistic problems for Larry Holmes. I like Rocky in a razor thin one by late TKO perhaps behind on the cards. All goes back to holmes trying to brawl his way out of trouble when hurt, hell play right into rockys plan. Rocky actually has the rare ability to outgut and outwork larry down the stretch. It would be a barn burner though! If larry wins I would not be suprised one bit!
Well Larry Holmes never made it to 49-0 But assuming he did at that point- I think he would have decisively beaten Rocky Marciano. Larry Homes never played to the crowd nor did he care if he was crowd pleasing but he knew had to get the job done. I think his jab would dictate the fight as it was still competent well into his 40s. Marciano could hit but Larry's been in there with bigger punchers and his chin has always been worthy. In boxing anything can happen and Marciano's power can't be ignored. I were a bookie I'd make Larry the favorite thought Marciano would always have the proverbial puncher's chance.
Maybe it's just because I watched the Rocky Marciano documentary on ESPN last night that I'm feeling a little pro Rocky Marciano, but I think Marciano would give Holmes a lot of problems. Holmes obviously had more skills and physical gifts, but Marciano had that pressure style that seemed to give Holmes the most trouble. If Holmes didn't cut Marciano up and stop him, he'd have a big fight on his hands.
Holmes would win by a decision or late round stoppage. When you say "Sure, but at the same time Rocky has more leverage than larry on the inside. He is going to be whacking larry everywhere, to the head body arms shoulders all with mean intentions. Thats going to wear larry down. Larrys uppercut will score, but rocky will connect on big right hands and leaping left hooks that will even things up." Rocky stated many times that he needed room for his punches. He stated that on his own TV show "Main Event" and his own sparring partners said the same thing. Here's an article that was written in the December 2000 Ring Magazine by Toxey Hall. Heavyweight: Toxey Hall: He had a piece of the Rock ... Every Day: Toxey Hall thought his boxing career had been TKO'd when he walked into Chicago's Midwest Boxing Gym one day in the spring of 1953. Although he had local Golden Gloves and Catholic Youth Organization titles on his resume, and had gone 7-2-2 as a professional boxer the year before, win or lose, Hall's face swelled up like a beach ball. It didn't take much for it to happen, either. "I could blow my nose and swell up," said Hall, now 72. "After a while, I decided boxing was not my thing to make a living." Born in Prentiss, Mississippi, Hall grew up helping his scharecropper father on their 180-acre farm. Good at football and baseball, he had no particular interest in boxing until he joined the Army in 1946 and had several bouts. When he was discharged, Hall decided to settle in Chicago, and began working in a cardboard box factory. On the second floor of the building was the CYO Gym, whose director was Tony Zale, the 1940s middleweight champion. Hall began working out under Zale' s tutelage. "What really got me interested," Hall recalled, "was in 1950, when I won the Joe Louis Sportsman Trophy in the National Golden Gloves tournament, and I started getting calls. People started treating me like I was the heavyweight champion of the world. I had no intention of doing anything in boxing. I was just trying to make a living. But these guys were so nice and good to me, and finally talked me into going pro." His manager was Ike Bernstein, who also had hard-punching Chicago light heavyweight contender Bob Satterfield. Satterfield's big drawback as a fighter was a glass jaw; Hall's was sensitive facial tissue. After fights, he sometimes had difficulty seeing out of his swollen eyes. A doctor told him there was nothing that could be done for it, and warned that Hall's vision might eventually become impaired if he fought more than once or twice a year. So on that day in '53 at the Midwest Gym, Hall was just a box-maker trying to stay in shape when his life was changed by the appearance of the heavyweight champion of the world. Rocky Marciano had won the title on September 22, 1952, by knocking out Jersey Joe Walcott in the 13th round. The undefeated Marciano was scheduled to defend the title in a rematch with Walcott at Chicago Stadium on May 15. The champion brought three sparring partners with him to the gym, and in short order each of them went off in search of medical attention. "Marciano had this right hand punch called 'Suzy-Q,' and he would bang up everybody's ribs," Hall said. Looking for additional fodder, Marciano's trainer, Charley Goldman, spotted the 5' 11", 195-pound Hall and asked if he would be interested in sparring with the champion. Hall didn't hesitate before agreeing. "I was a young man, and I wasn't even thinking that I was going to be 72 years old one day," Hall recalled with a laugh. He wasn't even fazed when Marciano's introductory remarks cast that prospect in some doubt. "Toxey, I don't mean any harm," said the champion who had knocked out 38 of his 42 opponents, "but everybody in the ring is my enemy. I don't pull no punches. Anybody who gets in the ring with me, even my friends, I'm knocking them out if I can." "That was pretty nice of you to tell me that," Hall answered genially, "so I won't pull no punches, either." Four rounds later, Hall was back in the fight game full-time. "I love the way you work," Marciano told him. "Will you come to training camp with me?" For the next three years, the Chicago fighter was paid $100 a week to help prepare Marciano-who knocked out Walcott in the first round of their second match-for five additional title defenses, and accompanied him on exhibitions around the country and overseas. "I stayed with him until he retired," said Hall. "It was really a pleasure. A pleasure, courting the dreaded Suzy-Q five days a week? "That first time I was skeptical," admitted Hall. "But I would've got into the ring with the heavyweight champion of the world, even if I knowed he would knock me out. It was a thrill-and after that it was just like drinking water. He hit me good, but I don't remember him hurting me. One time he hit me above the eye, and it busted open." To protect his vulnerable face, Marciano gave Hall one of the specially designed headgear the champion wore. "Most of the sparring partners would get hurt in their rib cage and wore football pads to protect them," said Hall. "But for some reason, that was my toughest part, and it didn't bother me much. "The thing is that Rocky couldn't do much if you crowded him. But if you gave him room, he'd knock you out. If he hurt me a little bit, I'd turn and run." The one slight exception was when they were preparing for Marciano's defense against England's Don Cockell in San Francisco on May 16, 1955. Before they got into the ring to spar, Hall mentioned that the champion was carrying his right hand low and exposing his chin. "Why don't you just hit me then?" Marciano challenged. So, recalled Hall, "I hit him with a left hook, and down he went." The press was there, and the incident got worldwide coverage. Marciano said nothing at the time, but the next day when they were doing roadwork together, the champion stopped and said, "Toxey, you son of a *****, you knocked me down in front of all those guys." But Marciano wasn't really upset. "We laughed about it," Hall said. "He liked rough stuff."
I heard a lot of gym storys and a lot of stories after the fact but I also saw a lot of good fighter get beat up in the gym. I know a few guys who beat everyone in the gym but froze in the ring
Larry looks best against the facefirst types that box on the outside. He fought a ton of them and they were catchers that Holmes could circle and jab to death. guys that applied pressure--and there wasn't many--were Berbick/Weaver/WitherspoonLeon Spinks/Norton. the pressure and workrate of Marciano is off the scale compared to those guys. Holmes had the A+ result aginst Spinks but nobody I knew was picking Leon to win. No A+ results against the others tho & the Marciano pressure and workrate and finishing skills is superior. Holmes wasn't a big enough hitter to stop the marciano assault and Rocky just drains the gastank. !0 rounds of Marciano is like Weaver and Witherspoon combined, I don't see Holmes getting those breathers he loved and that body attack will slow him down a ton. At that point, he doesn't have the power to prevent the tko stoppage. rocky will kill the body and then come over the top of the dropping holmes hands. And Marciano is a finisher and Larry doesn't escape.
Larry Holmes is a really good survivor. I think he holds on for a decision, and while not wobbling Rocky any, mess up his face a fair bit. Strangely, while I rate Marciano highly and think he might win against Frazier, I would put Frazier, another short pressure fighter, over Holmes. Difference for me is their susceptibility to jabs. Frazier did good against boxers. Marciano just wore you out with power and volume, but I think Holmes is just too tough to wear down.
Hssacup, Rocky had a 68" reach and T-rex arms. If you dont think he did his best work on the inside up close with all that leverage, than I don't know what to say to you.
So Suzieq. You are also claiming Rocky could beat Larry Holmes now? Marciano was a great fighter in his era, but he never beat a Heavyweight on the level of Larry Holmes. Walcott was a great fighter who had certain things trickier, cuter and unpredictable than Larry, which i love, but Walcott is not as big as Larry or as durable. Holmes had a better longer harder jab than Walcott. The 6'3", 209-215 pound Holmes was an aggressive jabber who used his 81 inch reach to his full capacity. Walcott might even drop Holmes with one of his tricks like walking away, then turning to bang home a right (twice dropping Joe Louis this way). But he does not beat Holmes. He had a better chin than Walcott. He had better recovery powers than Walcott. He had vast experience from his apprenticeships with Muhammad Ali and Joe Frazier. Larry is a bad style match up for Marciano.
Yeah i don't really care what he [Rocky] said about "needing room for punches", film clearly shows that he needs very little room and has his way with a lot of great boxers on the inside. Maybe he was being humble, maybe the quote is out of context, i don't know and i don't care because boxers say all kind of things that don't make sense. As for this matchup, i think Marciano still had more left when he beat Moore than Holmes when he, should-have beaten Spinks. In fact, Marciano's late-career swarming-style may have been better suited to beat Holmes than the lower-output, hard punching younger version of him.
Good point Chris. Yes I just picked an ATG over another ATG, my what a shock!!! I do pick around 5 heavyweights in history to beat Rocky Marciano, but Larry Holmes is not one of them. Yes I agree with you, however I could turn around and say Larry Holmes never beat a heavyweight on the level of Rocky Marciano. The only heavyweight holmes fought similiar to Marciano, he was knocked out cold in 4 rounds at age 38. I don't see what common opponents has to do with this. Yes Holmes had a tremendous jab, but at 6'3 he is going to have to bend down real low to hit marciano cleanly with a jab in his crouch, 6'3 Ali even commented on how hard a 46 year old rock was to hit with a clean jab. Louis who was 6'2 had a tremendous jab even at 37, said Rocky was hard to hit cleanly with a jab. While I do think it will be a factor, I dont think it will be a major one. Rocky was very good at parrying jabs and getting really low in his crouch moving his lower body torso at all different angles, Larry might find this ackward. Larry is used to fighting tall fighters. I though we were talking about a Marciano vs Holmes Matchup here But did he have a better chin or better recovery powers than Marciano? Maybe, who knows. My question to you is late in the fight when Marciano has Holmes hurt, is he going to bring back his bad habit of trying to slug his way out off trouble when buzzed? This is his downfall against the rock Yes, because Marciano failed to fight guys who had years of Ring Experience. right? Holmes on the otherhand especially from 1983 onward loved to pick on those Embryo's. Well I guess the saying "get em while there young" applies here LOL. See I disagree here. Its a styles thing. I think Marciano matches up well against holmes, but that Holmes is a much worse matchup for Jack Dempsey. However, I think Ali is a horrible styles matchup for Marciano, but I feel Dempsey matches up better against Ali.