Frazier reflects on Thrilla, Ali

and joe louis picked williams to win regarding chuvalo fight - ali was at his heaviest weight ever and jim brown commentating said ali had been slack in his training leading up to the fight. ali at points was letting chuvalo hit him to the body - foolish but ali liked to play those mindgames in his fights. how many rounds did chuvalo win?

 

No matter Williams's state it was clear that those punches were powerful.

 

:deal

 

Well, Frazier was much, much better than Chuvalo.

No, he wasn't "arguably" further past his prime on all occasions. During the first fight both were closest to their respective peaks, though Frazier was closer. During the rematch [which incidentally could've gone both ways], Frazier was further past his best than Ali, dito for their 3rd fight. Bottomline is that Ali was in better condition during 2 out of their 3 fights.

 

But not "MUCH, MUCH" better. :smooch

Anyhow, trying to speculate just how much better Frazier would perform than Chuvalo is hard. It's more clear-cut to speculate how much Ali of 1966-1967 would improve on the perfomance he gave in FOTC. Since both Chuvalo and Patterson said he was better pre-exile it's pretty safe to say he would improve, and he didn't have to improve that much to win. Just win two more rounds.

This is a popular claim, but there just isn't much basis for it.

1. Ali was older on all occasions.

2. He had had more fights on all occassions.

3. His career had been disrupted by a long lay-off.

4. Frazier had his probably most impressive win next to FOTC in 1974 when he demolished Quarry who came off his best year. It was a more decisive win than the first one in 1969.

Yes, Frazier's sight detoriated gradually, but Ali had a lot of trouble with his right hand. Yes, Frazier was destroyed by Foreman, but Ali had his very tough fights with Norton.


I just don't see much reason to say that Frazier was further past his prime for any of the fights. There are however plenty of reasons to believe that Ali was further past his prime for all three.

 

I was born during the war in 'Nam, and so I was too young to fight in it. However, America was foolish to get involved.. Sure, we hate Communism, nor do we want it to spread, but Ali was right to tell Uncle Sam to blow-it out his ass back in 1967...... 'Nam was a friggin' civil war betwen a remote Asian country that has never been worth jack **** to the USA.......... 55,000 to 60,000 U.S. Soilders were wasted in that damn farce.... Them *******s "Kennedy & Johnson" were guilty as sin for them deaths......
:deal
'Nam was NOT a world war, so I cannot blame Ali for telling the Gov't to go to hell...... Ali, like many Americans, never had any beef with the Vietnamese people...... Stripping Ali of his title was bull****.........:hat

I saw the "Thrilla" doc. on HBO............ CHRIST! Both Joe Frazier and Dr. Ferdie Pacheco look and sounded somewhat senile / lost...... However, Ferdie did a have a stroke a few yrs ago.....:|

Butch Lewis was prolly the most candid from the past.....

Eddie Futch did the right thing by stopping the fight.... Frazier was being battered to death by a seriously fatigued Ali.... Nuff said........

MR.BILL:bbb

 

Williams still had some ability during his comeback in boxing in 1966..... Christ, Williams was shot in 1964 by a badge happy pig and almost died... However, though he managed to live, he also dropped down to 140 pounds at his lowest point in 1965.... JESUS! That is freaky for Cleveland Williams....... BUT! Upon his fight with Ali, Williams got himself pumped up again to the area of 212 pounds..... Williams' skills always were under par, but his power was TNT!! Point being: Ali was peaked and tagged Williams with some wicked ass punches in 1966....... Nothing ***** about Ali's punches in that particular fight in Texas......

MR.BILL

 

so bummy says ali didn't throw powerful punches v williams. you are the best back to the men that fought ali in the 60s and 70s - chuvalo & patterson both stated that 60s Ali was superior. maybe they know something about boxing :hey

 

I have "Clay-Moore" from '62 on tape...... Clay was only 20 yrs old and hitting an old man of age 46 like a rag doll..... On tape it doesn't appear that Clay was landing heavy shots that were wickedly solid, however, Moore still was dropped several times and stopped in four...... Clay / Ali had power..........

MR.BILL

 

To take it a step further, my dad was a Vietnam vet, and going from the stories, many of those he was with didn't blame Ali for his views because a good number of the guys over there knew it was a foolish war that was costing good soldiers their lives. That knowledge, combined with getting spit on and treated by protesters and virtually no effective debriefing to prepare the vets for civilian life, were the primary drivers behind the jadedness and other issues that many Vietnam vets dealt with, and in some cases, still are.

From my experiences, many of the people who got on Ali for draft dodging were either chicken hawks with no actual family ties to the rank and file soldiers going over there, or family members of men who had been drafted and who couldn't get out of it.

As an example of history repeating itself, remember that Dempsey had clouds over him for "ducking" World War I, another war that the US really didn't need to have any involvement in. Jack wound up alleviating that by training the Coast Guard and teaching them some hand to hand combat skills once he was retired.

 

But the blows are easy to see that they land with power. You see it in the leverage and the speed and authority in the deliverance.

 

Yes, he lost to Ali twice, but just look at the shape he was in when he lost those two fights. He was clearly past it and wasn't training like a beast like he did before. Ali clearly had more longevity and wasn't slipping the way Frazier did. Little guys who take boatloads of punishment don't last long in boxing. Had they met earlier, you never know who could win. Frazier might have won two out of three. I doubt it, though.

 

As noted before this is a cliché with very little substance to it. But it seems it just have to be repeated enough times to be accepted as true.