Frazier reflects on Thrilla, Ali

Williams was nowhere near his best against Satterfield.

But Ali himself said when reviewing the fight with Cosell that people should not judge him based on this performance because Williams was over the hill. He said it did not prove anything.

Lets not forget that Williams had starved to under 160 pounds after being shot in the stomach by a police officer. He trained hard and gained back all that weight but he was never quite the same afterwards.

 

It is what it is. Of course I am biased because I was never an Ali fan, so I naturally would want Frazier to beat him. Of course, Ali was the greater fighter, and I think If they met three times, even in their prime, Frazier would always lose 2 out of 3

 

Fair enough. We all carry a bit bias towards one fighter or another. I suppose it doesn't require a rocket scientist to figure out which guy I favour. :hat

 

my trainer worked off shore with richard and richard told him stories as he found out he was a boxer and Ali said coming out for the 5th round

'Richard you have put up a good fight but im going to end it this round'

just thought i would share that with yous

 

Ali had his gloves taken off and given to Mickey Duff in the ring,Duff said Ali tapped him on the shoulder and said" look inside the gloves".Inside was a scrap of paper with the words 'Ali wins,round five'.

 

i have heard that story didnt know it was the dunne fight, at least Dunne tried unlike another certain British fighter

 

Richard Dunn went in to as we say in the UK "have a go", he took the fight to Ali and though knocked down multiple times ,never stopped trying . Dunn was in there to win , contrast him with a much more talented fighter from Hungary who twice met Ali and was content to survive.Dunn was very brave and did his best ,he has my full respect.

 

Britain made a career outta peddling sorry-ass heavyweight pretenders..... "London & Dunne" come to mind... Henry Cooper was the goods, but soundly out-classed by Ali... The next decent bloke was Franklin Bruno, but Bruno had a glass-jaw...... Lennox Lewis finally broke the damn curse...... However, people still are in debate as to where the **** Lewis really comes from.........:-blood:barf

MR.BILL:deal

 

You know that this point is meaningless. Lewis was older than Tyson when they fought, does that mean Tyson was in better condition?

Yes, but during most of Ali's fights, he barely got hit; especially during his first career. Frazier always went in face-first and took a few hits to land one of his own.

Yes, great it isn't it? His body basically got a 3-year rest while Frazier was having wars with Quarry and Bonavena.

Tell me what's better for your body: 3 years of doing public speaking with the odd exhibition, or boxing for 3 years against the best challengers in the world?

Are you kidding? Quarry was close to shot when Frazier beat him for the second time. Good performance for Frazier, but Ali's win over a peak Foreman that same year is much more impressive.

Tough fights with Norton are not nearly comparable to the wars that Frazier had been in. And like you said, he had serious eye problems (cataract), blood pressure problems and other stuff which didn't allow him to train as hard as he could. There's a reason he was 10-15 lbs overweight. Ali's hand trouble is a no-factor by comparison, and he never held back on it during their fights as anyone can see. Pain killers and all that. Frazier couldn't get his eyesight back or blood pressure down with pain killers.

Are you purposefully ignoring the reasons that refute your arguments? Because i thought you would've been able to think of them by yourself; particularly the one of "Ali was older" is not something i'd expect from you.

 

If you think being inactive for three years is better for your body than fighting regular .I presume you havent seen the Dempsey Tunney fights.
That argument is tosh.

 

"To rest is to rust"

 

:hat:bbb

It depends on what you do and who you fight......... Dempsey was *****-whipped and not really interested in boxing by 1926...... He took on Tunney for the money and a chance to hang onto a ONCE hot career in the ring..... Dempsey also had a style best suited for fighters aged 22 to 27 yrs....... By age 30, Dempsey was rusty and faded......

However, look at more modern dudes like Ray Leonard or Vitali Klit....... These guys come back after long layoffs and win world title from "Hagler & Peter." It's freaky but it happens........:bbb

MR.BILL:admin

 

NOW! Larry Holmes came back in 1991 to beat up Latin punching bag Eddie Gonzalez on the USA network..... This was Holmes' first fight back since being KO'd by Tyson in 1988..... Yes, Larry Holmes was now going on 42 yrs of age in 1991, but Holmes stated that he felt better and stronger in the ring then he did earlier in '88....... Sometime a layoff or rest period can replenish a body.......... Peace...

MR.BILL

 

But in far and away most cases age does matter. Fighters are in most cases better at 30 than 32, 31 than 33 etc. Two years doesn't make a lot of difference, but it can make some, and once you get over 30 those years certainly don't work in favour of the older guy.

Lewis, like Holmes, was a bit special since he started out late.

But they weren't really that punishing. The Bonavena fights were tough, as were the ones against Foreman and Ali. Otherwise he never took a real beating, and he didn't have that many fights. Chuvalo generally took much more punishment and he continued on long after 50 fights. Frazier didn't take exceptional amounts of punishment except against Ali and Foreman, so there is no reason to think he would decline badly after only some 30 fights.

Ali didn't have the "odd exhibition", he only did a couple of exhibitions in the lead up to the Quarry fight. That was after more than three years of inactivity already.

And boxing regularly is better for your body, of course. A long inactivity dimishes your stamina, explosiveness, reflexes, timing etc, etc. Or do you think Dempsey was in the best shape of his life when he took on Tunney? It's clear that his inactivity cost him, just as it cost Ali.

Once again: Two opponents (Chuvalo and Patterson) that both met Ali before and after the exile said he was noticeably better before the exile.

Whay more do you want? Do you also feel that Dempsey, Tyson and Leonard benifitted from their lay-offs?

He was a top contender coming off his perhaps two best wins and you call him shot? That is, actually, quite crazy.

This part is actually the only thing you said that really makes sense. Yes, Frazier had medical problems and they were probably responsible for at least some degree of detoriation.

But about him being 10-15 lbs heavier... Ali was coming in over 220 lbs for a lot of fights post-exile. Before the exile he had never been heavier than 212,5. Against Mathis in 1971 I think he was 227.

Now let's look at their weights in the different fights compared to their pime weights (205 for Frazier and 212 for Ali).

FOTC: Frazier 205 (prime weight), Ali 215 (prime weight + 3 lbs).

Rematch: Frazier 209 (prime weight + 4 lbs), Ali 212 (prime weight)

Manilla: Frazier 215 (prime weight + 10 lbs), Ali 225 (prime weight + 13 lbs)

Frazier obviously didn't have more problems keeping his weight than Ali. Rather the opposite (even if it doesn't really differ much).

Except from quoting the medical reasons your "refuting reasons" are frankly not that good, like "older doesn't matter one bit" and "the lay-off benifitted Ali".

Personally, I think Frazier was at his very best in FOTC and then a bit more diminished for each of the other two fights. But Ali was diminshed for all the fights.

Yes, Frazier was a bit slower in Manilla than FOTC, but look at Ali in Manilla and compare his speed to the Ali of 1966-1967. There's quite a difference. In fact all the versions of Ali that met Frazier were slower and had less stamina than the Ali of 1966-1967. There just ain't no way around this.

 

a 3 year rest is good for a fighter i suppose a 3 year lay-off for any top athlete who needs to be in top physical condition is good for them. some haven't got a clue atsch