Leonard vs. Duran--Under Perfect Conditions

How was Duran more durable? Could Duran ever survive Hearns at welter?

I do rate Duran higher p4p but Leonard was more durable

 

SRL certainly was as rugged as any when it came to taking it downstairs, and his torso was discolored at the end of that introductory fracas. But Roberto's attack would garner points nonetheless, at least in the eyes of competent judges. As you already made clear, no worries.

 

The Ali-Frazier of the Welterwieghts. If they fought 10 times there would only be a few points seperating them. The Leonard that fought Hearns was better than the one in Montreal. Leonard was still a little green in Montreal & Duran was a seasoned pro. True Benitez was a big fight, But This was the biggest NonHeavywieght fight in history at the time. A lot of pressure for the young Welterweight.

 

has anyone taken into consideration leonards actions leading up to the second fight. where by his own admission, he stated that he knew thet duran would be unable to get into top shape in the timeframe he had to train.

his words lead me to believe that there were doubts in his mind as to how much of a chance he stood against a well prepared duran.

 

It's a rational inference. In his final match befor Montreal, Ray completely put out Dave Green's lights, with the most perfect uppercut/hook combination imaginable, a result so devastating that it frightened SRL as much as Foster's hook against Mike Quarry did Bob, or Patterson's title recapturing hook against Ingo scared Floyd.

SRL went from the awesome peak of the Green performance to a situation where nothing he tried in the trenches was able to deter his smaller and older opponent, a circumstance which Arguello admits broke his fighting spirit against Pryor. ("I hit him with good shots, and nothing happens.") We'd already seen that, with both in peak condition, Duran could hurt SRL, but the reverse wasn't true. I'm sure Ray was banking on Duran's infamous appetite (a major side story in the days leading up to Montreal), and the fact of his being sated by conquest in their first go-around, would result in Roberto's being less than fully motivated. Sure enough, Duran was only in it for the money this time. He took the eight million dollar payoff and ran. This is the real reason he deserves to be reviled for New Orleans. At the time he quit, he'd already proved once again that he was somehow impervious to SRL's punishment. This makes his despicable behavior even more egregious.

For his part, Ray disingenuously attempted to take full credit for this sordid outcome. For all of Mike Tyson's contemptible behavior, the most honorable thing he did in boxing, was to declare in his post fight conference following the Bonecrusher Smith debacle, that Smith didn't deserve to get paid. SRL should have made the same statement about Duran, in what really did turn out to be "The Big Easy" for him that night. (Tyson garnered a massive amount of respect for his comments about Bonecrusher's walking tank job. Too bad he had to blow it all with such stupid choices later.)

 

Ray tried to prove he could out fight Duran toe to toe in the first fight. He couldn't then, and wouldn't be able to at any time probably. He did come close that way, though. The second time he used his advantages over Duran. Duran may have made him work harder under perfect conditions, but I don't think he can ever catch up to Ray, when Ray fights like he did in their rematch.

 

Tough call. Of course, on one hand the Montreal fight was ideal conditions and Duran won that one fair and square. But bookmakers still made Leonard favourite for the rematch, so they likely figured that he'd gained valuable experience- and would adopt a different approach. Hmm, I don't know which way to vote really. I do believe Leonard would win more than he lost if he fought Duran at welterweight, but Roberto did win the first one (always the best one to win I feel because there's always the level playing field).


This scenario is a bit like two other rivalries that occured around this time. Coe vs Ovett in athletics and Borg-McEnroe in tennis. When Ovett won the 800 metres in Moscow, in which Coe was favourite, Coe seemed more determined when they raced in the 1500 (in which Ovett was unbeaten for ages). It was always going to be 1-1. Same with Borg beating Mac at Wimbledon in 1980, Mac's revenge the year later. The loser had far more motivation in the rematch. I honestly think Duran vs Leonard was always going to end 1-1 in 1980 and whoever lost the first would win the 2nd. So, I'm not going to vote.

 

Agreed, Leonard was just hitting his absolute peak at 147 when he retired IMO.

 

Before you finally choose not to decide, I would suggest you consider who would have prevailed between the Duran of Montreal, and the SRL of New Orleans, or the first match with Hearns. As one who leans towards Duran, it appears to me that you might favor Ray. Who do you think was better at their very best?

 

Yep, agree totally with all this MDWC.

On the other hand, every now and then a sportsmen emerges who sustains incredible winning streaks despite the usual losses in motivation (e.g. Carl Lewis 4 consecutive LJ Olympic golds, also 4 golds in 1 Olympics in 1984, and a 10 year unbeaten streak in the LJ outside of the Olympic victories).

Duran held it together for 8 years which is exceptional, but i would have loved to see a couple more...

 

New Orleans' Leonard vs. Montreal Duran.

I think it is almost as close to a toss-up as you can find. Leonard was a beautiful boxwer -rythym & coordination, speed, power, timing, a lion heart, all combined with serious skill. Duran is Duran.

Leonard's edge was his youth, size & reach, and speed. Duran's was in experience, skill, and yes, durability (the Duran->Hearns<-Leonard analogy is representative of nothing. Different Durans).

I'd also give Duran the edge in power, but Duran respected Leonard's power and this can be seen in the fact that he was not averse to disdaining defense at all, even in the rushes. Duran did exercise caution with Leonard because of the speed. He fought Cuevas less carefully than he did Leonard, which suggest how Duran himself viewed their comparative dangerousness.

An inspired, peak or near-peak Duran was incredibly hard to beat. He never was beaten when in that kind of mental-emotional-physical condition. Duran would need to be in that kind of condition to ever beat Leonard. IMO, post-1980, Duran never would have beaten Leonard again.

Duran by SD over 15. This close because although Duran was the greater and better fighter, he was still a bit past his prime and fighting one of the top 2 or 3 elite WWs ATG.

 

I think Duran was better at their best, but at welter I think Leonard would have beaten more great fighters. To be honest, I think if I had to bet my house on New Orleans Ray vs Montreal Roberto, I'd go with Leonard.

 

Thanks mate. Yes, there's also the athlete who dominates. I remember McEnroe talking about that great 1980 Final and he said when the game entered a 5th set "How could he (Borg) possibly want to win this more than me". Referring to the fact that Borg had won the previous 4, but some sportsman, like Lewis, are never content and want to win everything. Duran struck me as a fighter who'd considered job done after Montreal and it was time to enjoy the fruits of his labour. Leonard was never going to lose the rematch really.

 

perfect conditions are hard to find here. leonard was a natural welter, duran a lightweight.

so to be somewhat fair, youd have to make it at jr welter.


in this playing field i pick duran.

 

So would I. Ray would probably be too weakened from making weight, hardly a perfect condition for him. (Keep in mind that SRL never in his entire pro career boxed below 141, and that was in his second bout, when rawhide tough Fireball Rodriguez wobbled Ray more than anybody else, until Duran himself in Montreal.) In a real world context, Montreal was a close to a perfect condition as both participants could factually have obtained. Looking at Ray's performance off the Green kayo, it may not have occurred to him that he wouldn't be able to drop Roberto as LW DeJesus had done twice before. Palomino could hit, but he didn't have the sort of speed SRL did. Being the bigger, younger man, it wouldn't have necessarily seemed a foolhardy plan to Ray for him to take on Duran in the trenches as he decided to going in. The idea of Duran controlling the exchanges of strength and power might have been considered as absurd as SRR bulling and battering Joey Maxim about.