Ali's GREATNESS...truth, fiction or in between?

Absolute truth.

 

I don't know what more a man could do to be ranked as the best heavyweight ever.For the best part of twenty years fom the early sixties until '80 he fought and beat just about every top contender/champion,some even twice,he ducked no one.
Liston x2
Frazier x2
Norton x2
Patterson x2
Quarry x2
Chuvalo x2
Foreman
Lyle
Shavers
Young
Terrell
Ellis
Jones
Folley
Moore
Foster
Williams
Name another heavy with a resume anywhere near comparable to that,and i love Joe Louis have no problem with people having him at number 1.

 

Ali didn't win inside the ring by being "larger than life" or by talking. He won it on his boxing ability.

I would say that Ron u.k.'s post does a lot of "talking". More than enough to lock Ali into the greatest slot.

 

He beat some great fighters and was tough as hell--so I think he deserves to be included with the greats. He could be obnoxious but his antics created interest, no denying that.


http://www.amazon.com/Joe-Gans-Biography-American-Champion/dp/0786439947/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_b

 

The same or more. His resume and actions speak for themselves.

 

Very well put.

Ali fought 38 different opponents 49 times in 61 bouts that were rated at one time or another in the top 10 in the World. - 80.3279%

Louis fought 43 different Opponents 54 times in 71 bouts that were rated at one time or another in the top 10 in the World. - 76.056%

Rocky fought 13 different Opponents 16 times in 49 bouts that were rated at one time or another in the top 10 in the World. - 32.653%

Ali fought 38 out of 61 opponents while they were in the top 10. He beat 33 of them 54.098%

Louis fought 35 out of 71 opponents while they were rated in the top 10. He beat 31 of them 45.07%

Rocky fought 11 out of 49 opponents while they were rated in the top 10. He beat all 11 of them 22.44898%

Ali fought boxers that had an average pro record of 33-5-1 when he fought them.

Louis fought boxers that had an average pro record of 38-10-2.5 when he fought them.

Rocky fought boxers that had an average pro record of 29.7-10.16-1.78 when he fought them.

Just compare the list of Opponents that each fought, you can't tell me that Ali didn't box the better opponents.

Ali beat Foreman, Frazier 2 out of 3 times, Liston twice, Norton 2 out of 3 times, Patterson twice, Quarry twice, Bonavena, Ellis, Folley, Terrell, Chuvalo twice, Lyle & Shavers. I can go on, BUT I think you know what I mean.
Louis beat Greats like Baer, Schmeling, Walcott twice, Conn twice, Braddock, Carnera & Sharkey.

Compare them at the time they fought Ali or Louis, not just their overall record, and you will see what I am talking about.

Both of these Great boxers are among the best ever, I rate them 1-2. When I was a kid, most experts would say that it was Dempsey who was the Greatest, as time went on the experts would say it was Louis, now for many years, they say it's Ali. No one knows for sure and everyone has their opinions.

These are the facts and I am not going to tell you to go in a corner, BUT if you would take the time to look at them, you will see for yourself.

As far as their records go, Louis fought several that lost near the end of their careers. When he fought Charles, Ezzard had a record of 61-5-1 and when Charles retired he ended up 90-25-1.

Just match up Ali's opponents with Louis's that they beat.

I have my picks in BOLD

1. Foreman 40-0-0 vs. Max Baer 50-6-0
2. Frazier 30-1-0 & 32-2-0 vs. Schmeling 52-7-4
3. Liston 35-1-0 & 35-2-0 vs. Braddock 50-25-7
4. Norton 30-1-0 & 37-3-0 vs. Walcott 44-11-2 & 44-12-2 Pick-Em - Edge goes to Norton
5. Patterson 43-4-0 & 55-7-1 vs. Conn 59-10-1 & 62-11-1
6. Quarry 37-4-4 & 43-5-4 vs. Nova 26-2-4
7. Bonavena 46-6-1 vs. Galento 76-23-5
8. Ellis 30-6-0 vs. Sharkey 38-13-3
9. Folley 74-7-4 vs. Farr 66-20-13 Pick-Em - Edge to Folley
10. Terrell 38-4-0 vs. Carnera 82-7-0
11. Chuvalo 34-11-2 & 66-17-2 vs. Godoy 53-8-7 & 53-9-7
12. Lyle 30-2-1 vs. Simon 34-7-0
13. Shavers 54-5-1 vs. Buddy Baer 50-5-0 & 50-6-0
14. Bugner 43-4-1 & 51-6-1 vs.
15. Bob Foster 49-5-0 vs.
16. Mac Foster 28-1-0 vs.
17. Mildenberger 49-2-3
18. Moore 184-22-11
19. Young 17-4-2
20. Williams 65-5-1
21. Jones 21-3-1
22. Cooper 27-8-1 & 33-11-1
23. L. Spinks 7-0-1

This is their records at the time(s) they fought Ali and Louis. You can also switch them around if you want, just try to pick the best against the best. Meaning you should have the top opponents that Ali boxed against the top opponents of Louis.

That’s 31 wins against 23 different opponents. All 23 opponents were rated #3 or better in the World at one time or another by Ring Magazine.

How about Rocky, Just match up Ali's opponents with Rocky's that they beat.

1. Foreman 40-0-0 vs. Walcott 51-16-2 & 51-17-2
2. Frazier 30-1-0 & 32-2-0 vs. Charles 80-10-1 & 80-11-1
3. Liston 35-1-0 & 35-2-0 vs. Moore 148-19-9
4. Norton 30-1-0 & 37-3-0 vs. LaStarza 37-0-0 & 53-3-0
5. Patterson 43-4-0 & 55-7-1 vs. Cockell 66-11-1
6. Quarry 37-4-4 & 43-5-4 vs. Matthews 81-3-5
7. Bonavena 46-6-1 vs. Louis 69-2-0
8. Ellis 30-6-0 vs. Layne 34-1-2
9. Folley 74-7-4 vs. Savold 93-39-3
10. Terrell 38-4-0 vs. Muscato 56-20-0
11. Chuvalo 34-11-2 & 66-17-2 vs. Shkor 29-18-2
12. Lyle 30-2-1 vs. Beshore 30-12-1
13. Shavers 54-5-1 vs. Reynolds 51-9-2
14. Bugner 43-4-1 & 51-6-1 vs.
15. Bob Foster 49-5-0 vs.
16. Mac Foster 28-1-0 vs.
17. Mildenberger 49-2-3 vs.
18. Moore 184-22-11 vs.
19. Young 17-4-2 vs.
20. Williams 65-5-1 vs.
21. Jones 21-3-1 vs.
22. Cooper 27-8-1 & 33-11-1 vs.
23. L. Spinks 7-0-1 vs.

Try doing it with any other Heavyweight Champion in History:

Because some Heavyweight Champions beat the same opponent more then once, try matching Ali's Top Opponents against any other Heavyweight Champion.

Boxers that Ali fought & beat that were rated #3 or above at one time or another:

1. George Foreman (CH) 40-0-0 vs.
2. Joe Frazier (CH) 30-1-0 vs.
3. Joe Frazier (CH) 32-2-0 vs.
4. Sonny Liston (CH) 35-1-0 vs.
5. Sonny Liston (CH) 35-2-0 vs.
6. Ken Norton (1-CH) 30-1-0 vs.
7. Ken Norton (1-CH) 37-3-0 vs.
8. Floyd Patterson (CH) 43-4-0 vs.
9. Floyd Patterson (CH) 55-7-1 vs.
10. Jerry Quarry (1) 37-4-4 vs.
11. Jerry Quarry (1) 43-5-4 vs.
12. Oscar Bonavena (2) 46-6-1 vs.
13. Jimmy Ellis (2-CH) 30-6-0 vs.
14. Zora Folley (1) 74-7-4 vs.
15. Ernie Terrell (1-CH) 38-4-0 vs.
16. George Chuvalo (3) 34-11-2 vs.
17. George Chuvalo (3) 66-17-2 vs.
18. Ron Lyle (3) 30-2-1 vs.
19. Earnie Shavers (3) 54-5-1 vs.
20. Joe Bugner (3) 43-4-1 vs.
21. Joe Bugner (3) 51-6-1 vs.
22. Bob Foster (LH-CH) 49-5-0 vs.
23. Mac Foster (1) 28-1-0 vs.
24. Karl Mildenberger (1) 49-2-3 vs.
25. Archie Moore (LH-CH) - (1) 184-22-11 vs.
26. Jimmy Young (1) 17-4-2 vs.
27. Cleveland Williams (3) 65-5-1 vs.
28. Doug Jones (2) 21-3-1 vs.
29. Henry Cooper (2) 27-8-1 vs.
30. Henry Cooper (2) 33-11-1 vs.
31. Leon Spinks (CH) 7-0-1 vs.

 

It's good to question the status quo, but in this case the consensus is founded. Ali beat the best fighters at HW. He beat three top 10 HWs (I wouldn't think there would be too many lists without those three in the 10), and some superb second tier fighters such as Norton, Patterson, Quarry, Ellis ra ra ra.

IMO the only other candidate for number 1 is Joe Louis, the rest make up the numbers.

 

So progressive, calling another black man the equivlent of a ****** to make money in the racially charged 70's.

 

I pretty sure the Liston of the 2nd Ali fight would lose to Moore, perhaps even the Liston of the first fight.

I favor prime Moore over old Liston.

 

I really can not see Moore beating Liston, even on his best day. Sonny was a Great puncher with a Great jab. He would have out weighed Archie by approx. 25 pounds.

Before Sonny fought Ali, most experts were comparing him with the all-time Greats. He KO'ed Patterson twice in the 1st round, and a young 21 year old Patterson stopped Moore in 5 rounds.

 

But this is the Liston of the Ali fights, not the Liston that topple Patterson.

Moore would win this one imo. Liston was pretty out of it in both fights.

 

Ali is possibly the Greatest inside of the ring. I agree with the poster that mentioned that he would hands down be seen as the Greatest HW if he had a humble demeanor.

Outside of the ring, the man was as low life as it gets. He was really the prototype for today's idiot type personalities being idolized. You know, the Floyd Mayweather Jr.'s and the Deion Sanders, etc. It's unfortunate that the generation from the late sixties into the seventies bought into his brand of garbage. That generation was willing to overlook that fact that the man was a racist, bigot, simple minded idiot being guided by even more sinister people. This same generation has now raised children and grandchildren to believe that complete pieces of **** like Roid Jones Jr. are cool.

BTW, I'm only 34 years old, so don't get the idea that I'm a bitter 90 year old man.

 

If he was fighting any other boxer then Ali, he most likely would have won. No other heavyweight at that time would have stood a chance against Sonny. On July 22, 1963, he was regarded as one of the best ever, 7 months later, Sonny was still a 7-1 favorite, so most experts thought he would have no trouble with Ali either. In their 2nd bout, Liston was again the favorite 7-5.

 

Liston was old, slow, out of shape, hell goting so slow his trainers paid sparring parnters to make Liston look good.

Liston got this by his rep. Most atgs imo would have beating the Liston that show up for the Ali fights.

 

Most of that was an act. He was on a talk show many years ago with the legendary wrestler Gorgeous George. George was booed on the show and Ali asked him why he acted that way. George asked Ali to come to the wrestling show the next night. The crowd booed George all night BUT later on George told Ali that some people come to see him win BUT others come to see him lose. Either way, they come.