Head to head, overall, is Ike Williams right up there with Duran/Whitaker?

At 140 though....Gavilan was most effective at 147 and Williams at 135. Good win, but pretty irrelevent here.

SuzieQ doesn't like Sweet Pea because all the footage of him is in colour

 

Less durable? Based on what? Getting stopped twice in an 180 fight career? One of those stoppages being his first fight?

Jack might be stronger that Armstrong, but he's definitely not more durable. And Armstrong, for as hittable as he was, still had an effective defense. He was able to roll with a lot of punches, and could stay on a fighter's chest to lessen the ability of the fighter to get leverage on his shots.

Now Ike could stop Armstrong, but I wouldn't favour him to do it, and if they tally up the cards after 15, I don't fancy Ike being in the lead.

 

So Whitaker's weakness of making top fighters miss ten punches in a row and not landing anything back is going to become glaring? You mean the scoring criterion of defense is going to become glaring? Hope so! Maybe the judges will reward it!

As teeto said earlier, defense is part of the scoring criteria in boxing. You know this. On another day, on another thread, you'll be telling us that Willie Pep won a round without throwing a punch. You know this.

 

The irony in all this though is that Whitaker is one of the best offensive fighters ever when it comes to being able to land punches. Anyone that says he simply makes top fighters miss punches and doesn't return anything hasn't seen him in his lightweight prime.

He was a bit reluctant against DLH but hey let's face it, if it was Pep in there at that stage of his career, he wouldn't have come out for the 9th ( more baiting on my part Suze, since this is starting to become a comical thread. lol@******* cocaine addict, btw ).

 

A win over a young prime bigger Kid Gavilan Pretty irrelevant huh? just like whitakers win over a past his prime Azumah Nelson, who we all know was a much better featherweight. Did Whitaker ever beat Rosario, or Prime Camacho, or 1980s Chavez?

 

IMO, the only one of those that could've beaten a primed Whitaker would've been Camacho ... if only for his speed.

I happen to think that Whitaker was skilled enough, with more proven intangiables, to get the job done versus Camacho. I don't think think that a Rosario that had fallen in love with his power is skilled and quick enough, in combination, to consistently punish Pea for his momentary lapses in concentration and balance issues caused by his footwork.

Despite both men arguably not being prime for their actual match up, stylistically, I deduce from their fight that Pea would have the high ground against Chavez. I think Chavez is too deliberate, Pea, too good on the backfoot, too much of a sharpshooter with intelligence (distinction between mere hand and footspeed and using it intelligently) and too adept at fighting on the inside and at mid-range ... which many are too dismissively quick to believe to be where a prime Chavez, Duran or Williams would automatically best Pea. Pea showed in their actual match up that he could more than handle himself at mid-range and on the inside with someone reknowned for that aspect of their game. I think is pans out similarly if you put prime versus prime versions of theirselves in there.

 

ike williams,alexis arguello,duran,henry armstrong,chavez would all get rid of benny leonard easily.

 

Some reasons for your picks might be useful,or are you just being whimsical ?[thats my polite term for it]

 

Thanks for acknowledging my post Sweet Scientist, it's taken 2 pages for someone to do so.

Good posts by the way.

 

well,all those newspaper decisions that he got,what does that mean??
also the fact that he fought 90 years ago.
he was only 5ft-5in,and nobody of that stature is going to last long with duran.i'm not a fan of duran but i know that a fighter from 90 years ago in any division isn't going to do compete with a modern(ish)all time great.

 

Leonards skills were superb possibly even the best ever for a lightweight, size and power isnt everything. Also he might have fought 90 years ago but he was miles ahead of his time, he is a modern fighter IMO because i dont really like the older fighters but Benny Leonard is a modern fighter style wise

 

SuzyQ i like you as a poster and your a top poster but you vastly even criminally underrate Pea he defensivly is a genius and as is said by other people in this thread is one of the best effectivly for landing punches against his opponents.

Sure Whittaker made oppenent miss with 10 punches in a row but they could expect 10 straight back all of tehm hitting. also whittaker had great versatility and could fight up close out side anywhere.

 

what did leonard,greb,dempsey etc etc have 90 years ago that fighters today haven't got ?? anything, or,is it all just "i've heard of somebody you haven't"

 

Leonard had the great skills of his he was an excellant jabber and outfighter and as i explained had a very modern style that would work even today. Leonards boxing skills set himself apart from everybody else IMO the only LW to even get near him in skills is Pea

 

well,the footage i've seen of these vintage fighters makes them look ,well,vintage.
no disrespect to them,but they belong in that era.
the champion in your avatar would give leonard a boxing lesson,he's bigger,faster,hits harder and took a better shot