Marciano vs. Norton

Okay, Axe, have it your way...... But that is where we differ to a degree.... Not so much about the fighters and the reviewing process, I do a lot of that myself.... However, only to fighters that I am truly interested in..... I like "Louis & Robinson." Truly all-time greats.....

But I am NOT secretive nor do I hide behind any masks..... I am up front with an open door..... I don't change my Avatar left and right or post under alias names, etc..... I use my real name and photo on ESB.... I also give out my e-mail address to other posters and attackers.... In truth, I receive VERY LITTLE hate mail in my box.... I am proud of that..... I've been doing / covering boxing for 30 yrs.... been recording fights for 25 yrs...... Been on ESB for 5 yrs......... Cancelled all boxing mag subscriptions in 2005......... I'm serious..... Cheers......
thumbsup:bbb:rasta:good:yep:shock:

MR.BILL

 

Some guys dont get it...I have gained weight that was muscle and I HAVE gained weight that was bloat. I have put on an amazing amount of muscle,no fat and then when I did extreme cardio, the muscle changed...I dont think it ever effected my punching power but when I was heavier my punches may have been heavier but my stamina became less....In Marciano's day he needed stamina for 15 rounders against guys that were experience going 15...Today we have a lot of BIG guys that cant breath after four rounds throwing 4 punches a rd....If Marciano was fighing today he would have to adjust to handling 12 rds and he could definatly put on weight that would be muscle, Tyson who was Marcianos height went from 200lbs to 215, was Mike a bit muscle bound, perhaps a touch, Frans Botha also put on weight and Riddick Bowe was a a good lightheavy even though he was 6"5 but as you can see with even Bowe,Briggs and a lot of the big guys they got too fat and easy to hit....Lewis,and the Klitschko are big men that are fit but there injuries and Ko losses make me wonder if the bigger you are the harder it is to get up...some people have a fixation on size and put too much emhpisis on it

 

Good morning, Henry. Glad to see you posting.

1. Tyson, Liston, Frazier, Holmes, Lewis, Bowe would beat Marciano's opponents.

I think Lewis sweeps the opposition of Sullivan, Jeffries, Johnson, Dempsey, Tunney, and Louis also. Let's take Louis, who fought probably the most good men of this group. Which one of his opponents would you favor over Lennox Lewis? The same is true of the other fighters you named. Liston would have actually terrorized Jeff's opposition.

It also might not be true, especially if the modern fighters don't get to use supplements. If they had never fought, who would have picked Schmeling to ko Louis? Douglas to ko Tyson? Marshall to defeat Liston? One would always expect great fighters to sweep non-great opposition, but it doesn't always actually work out that way.

2. I want to explain my thinking. I was listening to the Rick Barry talk show on the radio a few years back when I was living in the Bay Area. A caller put it to Barry that the gridiron football team the Oakland Raiders, who had a losing record that year, were better than the Lombardi Packers of the 1960's and would defeat them easily if the two teams played. I think the man is correct. I grew up in Wisconsin and was a big Packer fan back then, but the biggest player on that team was Ron Kostelnik at 260. They would be tiny by modern standards. I also think skills have evolved. The Packer placekickers could not kick for a modern college team. There are more great athletes playing gridiron today.
Barry replied that greatness is based on what you do in your own time. The Packers were a historically great team, winning five championships. The Raiders were mediocre. They don't become better than mediocre by fantasy matchups with gridiron teams of generations earlier, and this sort of matchup can't deny the Packers their historical achievements.

3. Dempsey--I don't know where he came from in this discussion, but I think Marciano's opposition was better than Dempsey's, at least the opposition he actually defeated. Had Dempsey fought and defeated Wills, it might be different, but he didn't. Historical fact.

4. I rate these fighters historically myself in this order---Ali, Louis, Marciano, Lewis, Holmes, Johnson, Holyfield, Foreman, Frazier, Jeffries.
Marciano is that high because he cleaned out his era, ko'd all his major opponents, and fought the best available opposition, without drawing the color line.

5. I don't usually get into it, but the head to head list would be much different. Lewis would come first. Ali and Louis would be high, but I think Vitali Klitschko might well make the top five of this sort of list, but I can see the argument against him as he blew his big chances against Bryd and Lewis. Holyfield, Holmes, and Foreman would also make this list, and probably Bowe and maybe Wlad Klitschko. No pre-1960's champion would be in the top ten except Louis.

Bowe or Vitali Klitschko might well defeat Jack Johnson, but there is no way I consider them as great as Johnson. I think historical ratings should always be kept separate from head to head ratings.

 

This thread does kick some ass.... I'll say that much..... Every swingin' dick in town wants in on this action.......

MR.BILL

 

The only reason why The "K" brothers get a bad rap is because they are the "In" thing right now..... After they finish up and retire, people will get a better reading on them two....... Again, I am a fan of both bros., but I think Vitali is more so wicked and dangerous.......... Peace....

MR.BILL

 

Could see them making a top 15 perhaps, or even top ten, if they clean out the era. Of couse poltics gets in the way of that of couse. They are more like the Larry Holmes of the divsion, than say the Ali's or Marciano's who defeated the best of there hey days.

Wlad beating Haye will be a first step, and in the end, if they DO clean out the divsion between them(They dont even have to face each other) I can see a top ten for both.

 

Does anyone really give a damn about "Valubum-Chagaev 2" in a few weeks? That's for the WBA chumpionship of the world..... WEAK!!

MR.BILL

 

Yes but Ali fought a lot more of them, so losing 1 or 2 more wouldn't mean that much.

RIGHT! and that is my opinion.

Again, I think different. I rate Rocky better career wise then I do head to head.

OLD FOGEY, we agree on just about everything BUT Marciano, I just think that there several ex-heavyweight Champions that would have done as good as he did if they faced the same opponents. So lets say that we can agree to disagree, as we both made Great points.

Don't get me wrong, I LOVE Rocky & the Marciano family, like I stated before, I was the MC when they unveiled the Rocky Marciano Stamp back in 1999. I was asked to be the MC by the Marciano family. I would LOVE to say that Rocky was the best ever, BUT I have to be honest with myself.

 

Yeah, I'll buy into all of this...... But, you gotta be prepared to be de-balled by a group of Marciano terrorists.... They are fanatical and vicious.... And, sometimes talking to a Marciano terrorist is like talking to a brick wall.... It's fruitless...... People think your delusional if you can make a claim that Rocco Marciano was beatable..... Unreal..... Cheerio......
thumbsup:rasta:bbb:good

MR.BILL

 

Rocky can be beating, any one can.
But at the same time, try not to underated the Rock when you mention guys like Willams, Bone Smith, Berbick, Thomas, Tucker ete would walk though Marciano if he was nothing.

I relly do belive had Marciano been in Tyson's era, He would have sweep Tysons foes, and even beat Douglas to boot.

 

I NEVER claimed that the 80s paper chumps would beat or walk through Marciano in a time machine... I did say that those paper chumps upon WINNING their titles, were pretty focused and ready to rumble.... I think them 80s chumps were good but also lazy and unmotivated... That's why they BLEW their titles within one or two defenses, etc..... But upon WINNING their paper titles, yes, "Weaver, Dokes, Coetzee, Page, Tubbs, Spoon, Thomas, Berbick & Bonecrusher Smith" were capable of giving Marciano problems or beating him..... I seriously doubt that Marciano would've smoked the whole lot in a time machine....... That's hard to digest.... Cheers....
thumbsup:bbb:yep:-D:shock:

MR.BILL:rasta

 

I think he do what Tyson did, may take a few rounds more, since Rocky started slower, but thats how I see it.

 

All of Marciano's championship opponents were light heavyweights apart from an old Louis. Wowee! Marciano the best light heavyweight ever! Ali had more defences than Rocky before exile and yes he was also undefeated BUT came back to get the title at the same age as when Marciano retired. Young, Shavers were all at the end of his career. It really pisses me off that every ali hater brings these same fights up over and over again. You wanna see peak ali fighting then watch his fights in the 60s before exile.

 

I hear that, Groove....:yep

Ali was washed up after 1975 / '76, but he had one great effort left for 1977 against Earnie Shavers........ Shavers was in good shape and pumped for that shot..... Ali was in shape too, and had to really dig deep to fend off Shavers for 15 rds.... Earnie Shavers really raised his game in '77 for the fight with Ali / the title.....:yep

By 1978, I firmly believe Ali was in the early stages of Parkinson's syndrome... Ali was not right or the same in either fight with Leon Spinks... Ali was afflicted by 1978 with his illness.....

By 1980, prior to his fight with Larry Holmes, it was obvious as all hell Ali was ill....... How the hell did Ali pass the physical exam in Vegas?? That had to be a payoff right there.... Ali's motor skills had slown and his words were slurred..... Angelo Dundee said he thought Ali had caught a punch in the throat during sparring and that was why Ali's voice / speech seemed sloppy.... What a load of crap.....:twisted:

MR.BILL:bbb

 

Give Marciano credit for what he did in his own era but let's not get carried away here. If we dropped Rock's opponents smack dab in the late 60's-early 70's they would be brutalized. Walcott and Moore would be the only ones that would be competitive. Matthews and Cockell would be annihillated by the likes of Liston, Foreman and smokin' Joe. Charles was a light heavy albeit a great one. He could win a belt in that division in the 60's-70's but not at HW. Rocky fought in an era when heavyweights were quite a bit smaller than heavies of later years. Hell most of Marciano's best opponents were blown up middleweights or light heavyweights. Nothing like the big athletic heavyweights that would come later on, Ali being the best example of course. I'm a monster Marciano fan but even I have to be realistic here. It's not his weight that would be detrimental. I'm sure Rocky could hurt anyone but it's his overall dimensions(Height and reach) along with his relative lack of speed and style that would do him in. He would just have too hard a time getting close enough to do any real damage. That 69" reach would be inneffective against a bigger and faster moving HW with a long reach and a good jab ala Ali, Holmes, Foreman(Yes Foreman) Lewis and the Douglas that beat Tyson. He would be eating leather all night just trying to close the gap. Like I've said before, these men would have the advantage of landing thier shots from far away and then getting out of there before Marciano counters. All of Marciano's opponents were there to be hit. Ali, Holmes, Lewis, Bowe et al wouldn't be. And while Rocky could punch, hitting a 175-190lb man isn't quite the same as hitting a 220lb man, assuming of course that he's good. One or two shots from Rocky aren't going to KO Ali or Foreman or Holmes period. So how else is he going to win, outbox them with his exceptional speed? outjab them from a distance. The fact is that as the 60's and 70's came along athletes in all sports got bigger and faster and more athletic and boxing was no different. Marciano is an all time great who was the best HW of his era. I feel it's a bit over the top however to say that he would easily defeat the HW's of subsequent eras. Men who were quite a bit larger and often times faster than the type of opponent Rocky was used to fighting.