Marciano vs. Norton

I never said he wouldn't have trouble, because I think he would, BUT he would find someway to win.

 

I'll buy that...

MR.BILL

 

LOOK! I am a PROUD Ali & Holmes nut-hugger..... Them two walk on water with me....

MR.BILL

 

Its my hope that both you and my buddy Henry address each of my posts

He gets plenty of credit here. The credit he does not get enough of is his capabilities of being succesful in OTHER eras

Thats highly questionable. For one, One of Marcianos victims, Archie Moore, was a top 10 heavyweight contender all the way through 1963 at age 45! so he automatically qualifies as a shoe in. 2ndly, If past there prime 1950s boxers like Patterson, Folley, Machen could be succesful enough to earn title shots in the late 1960s past there best days and if blown up middleweight jimmy ellis had enough to be WBA champion during that time, It is safe to say top master technician stylists like Jersey Joe Walcott and Ezzard Charles could defintley compete at the highest level of that era and pick up a scrap of the belt. 3rdly, If fighters like Chuck Wepner and Scott Ledoux could crack the top 10 in the 1970s, I am more than 100% sure Yound Studs like both Rex Layne and Roland Lastarza could have cracked the top 10 in the 1970s and been very competitive. If 37 year old Patterson could crack the top 10 in the early 1970s, I have no doubt a much bigger more powerful 37 year old Joe Louis could crack the top 10 in the 70s too.

I wouldn't say that. Marciano did fight alot of heavyweights in the 190lb range, but there were alot of well sized top rated heavyweights of that era. 6'2 215lb Joe Louis, 6'3 215lb Nino Valdes, 6'2 215lb Bob Baker, 6'3 200lb Earl Walls, 7'2 335lb Ewart Potgeiter, 6'2 210lb Heinz Neuhas, 6'3 210lb James J Parker, 6'3 205lb John Holman, 6'3 200lb Coley Wallace, 6'3 195lb 80" reach Hurricane Jackson..... All(except Potgeiter who was forced to retire early) were men who were in the Ring Magazine top 10 during Marciano's era.

By your definition, Vitali Klitschko lost to a blown up supermiddleweight, Larry Holmes twice lost to a lightheavyweight, Sonny Liston lost to a lightheavyweight journeyman, George Foreman was taken 20 rounds by a lightheavyweight, and Muhammad Ali was lucky to escape with a win over a lightheavyweight in 1963. All of Marcianos best opponents were well above 180lb when they fought him. I don't think its fair to use the "middleweights/light heavyweights level" without applying the same standard to other champions.

What big athletic heayvweights are you talking about? Because I have seen alot of fat overweight Huff and Puff "big" heavyweights of the past 10 years I would not call athletic. I would also argue that there is only so athletic a 6'5 240lb man can get, I believe most of marcianos top opponents possess more athletiscm than most 6'5 240lbers through history. You might say Lennox Lewis and Riddick Bowe, but how many other men that size through history possessed even close to the abilities those two had? Maybe Zero.

I'm a Marciano fan too, and I am being realistic too. you need to go check out the tape against and watch more closely, I personally think the best version of Marciano came against Louis, Layne, and Walcott. Maybe that will help.

This is where we disagree strongly. First of all, Rocky at 5'11 was no shorter than Mike Tyson who had alot of success fighting in a Tall 1980s era, not comparing the two skills levels but I am comparing the height issue since that is what we are discussing. I think Marciano's lack of height and reach COMBINED with his style that would be very helpful fighting a man much taller. Charlie Goldman taught rocky, if your short we make you might shorter. Thats exactley what he did. He taught Rocky to get low in a crouch with his hands high, and Rock a very athletic guy developed a keen ability to roll his torso around at all unpredictable oncopyable angles and what made him special was while he was down there in the crouch he was very dangerous because he could leap up at any moment and go on the offensive...making him a very difficult fighter to hit with a clean punch when those 6'4 fighters had to bend down and punch all the way down, it is very ackward and unpleasant for them..it leaves them off balance and open for counters.

Disagree. Marciano was very good at cutting off the ring. He knew how to cut off angles, he was very mechanical the way he slowly but surely cut his opponents air supply. Rocky knew how to work his crouch to get in close, and he would weave duck slip under punches and slowly creep his way in...not to mention Rocky DID have a good enough chin where he could afford to take a punch or two if needed to get in close quarters...

Speed is debatable, but I think more important attributes than speed against bigger men is Stamina and Strength. Rocky rates top at both categories...Most big men in history simply did not have the stamina or mental toughness to fight 15 excrutiating rounds with Marciano without quitting on themselves somewhere during the fight. Most big men did not have the workrate to match Marciano's. Rocky had the ability to break big men, he would pound away everywhere arms head body shoulders, these shots would have signifigant effect as the fight grew on...and of course rocky always had the suzy Q to end things early if landed flush. Strength is a big deal here, more important than speed with Rockys style. Archie Moore who fought 23 opponents above 200lb said Rocky was far and away the strongest hes ever faced. If your not strong enough, then you are going to get worn down by the big men in the clinches...but rocky had super human strength for his size...and he had the strength to not get pushed around by 220lbers. So imagine a style where you a 220lb powerful but flawed fighter has to fight a 185lb Human Windmill who you know his strong enough not to get controlled in clinches, whom you know is very ackward and difficult to hit with a clean punch in his crouch, whom you know hits hard enough to knock you out with one punch, whom you know has the chin to take a couple of your big bombs, and whom you know has the stamina and workrate to punch non stop for 15 rounds....That is a very tough fight for anyone.

I would also like to add against a man like lennox lewis, rocky would get the use of modern supplements/ weight training/nutrition and I suspect with proper training Rocky would be able to develop his fast twitch fiber muscles more, allowing himself more explosiveness in the speed of his punches the way Tyson had. You get this from doing power or explosive type weight lifts.

 

I really don't think reach would be a big deal....Mike Tyson had a 71" reach just 2" more, yet he had no trouble landing flush on numerous talented 6'5 opponents. For what its worth, the most brutal knockout Marciano ever laid on an opponent knocking him into a coma was when he fought Young Prospect 6'4 Carmine Vingo. There is a brief clip on youtube of Marciano-Vingo I sent to DMT sometime ago and he uploaded it. Vingo obviosely does not compare to some of the later 6'4 champions, but it does show Marciano has the ability to land on very tall heavyweights and do QUITE A BIT OF DAMAGE.

But these guys had there own stylistic problems. Holmes was a sucker for right hands his whole career, had a bad habit of trying to brawl his way out of trouble when hurt, and was knocked out by 5'11 Nick Wells and 5'11 Mike Tyson both by right hands

Muhammad Ali was taken near death 3 times by 5'11 Swarmer Joe Frazier

If foreman could not kayo you by round 5, he was going to lose especially against a fighter would could make you tire yourself out mentally and physically like the Rock.

Buster Douglas showed up out of shape all the time, and cruiserweight non big puncher Holyfield knocked Douglas out with 1 punch


Lennox Lewis was twice knocked out by one punch by two B level heavyweights, and never proved his recup powers when under major distress

You see, I dont think so. Rocky Marciano was very adapt and well schooled on dealing with Jabs. Rocky knew how to parry very well with his right hand protecting his left cheeck, he would get low in his crouch and roll around with his torso and its alot harder in that crouch for those tall jabbers to bend down and hit him there, its ackward as hell for a holmes who loved to fight tall fighters..... Also I don't care how past his prime Joe louis was in 1951, He was still 6'2 and still had a very good jab in any era regardless of age. It was sharp, powerful, and accurate. It was pretty much the reason why he beat all those contenders in his comeback. I thought Rocky did a very good job in this fight slipping Louis jab multiple times, and even though he did get busted up with it a little, he did not let it become a major factor dictating the fight. Jersey Joe Walcott Rex Layne*75 reach) and Archie Moore(78 reach) all had very good jabs and rocky showed a very good slip ratio in these fights....if anything rocky was very proven vs good jabbers in his career, and even though guys like holmes ali and lennox were a step above I think he showed he was capable of not letting these guys control him with there jabs. Just like Marcianos opponents, it seems you fell in the trap of thinking marcianos easy to hit with a jab, then they get in the ring with him and all of a sudden hes not so easy to hit cleanly anymore, even by the best sharpshooters this sport has ever seen.

Muhammad Ali who sparred with a 46 year old Rocky Marciano told Angelo Dundee in PRIVATE behind closed doors "Ange this guys alot harder to hit with a jab than he looks." Now Ali if anything never sugar coated anything, I really do believe Ali was honest when he said this, and I trust Muhammad's view.

I disagree for reasons stated above. Marciano knew how to use his leverage, he knew how to work inside and find his leverage, and once he was in close, he had the full advantage become of his dimensions and extra leverage.

Since when? Jersey Joe Walcott after an aggresive first 3 rounds, chose to stick move and jab during the mid rounds and in the dreadful 13th round you could see him backpedaling until the final punch. Archie Moore one of the better technicians of all time was certainly not there to be hit with his shoulder rolls, upperboddy movement. Roland Lastarza certainly was not there to be hit behind his high gaurded defensive style and rocky had to break through that gaurd to get in, and Ezzard Charles fought a boxing counterpunching style early in the first fight and it wasnt until rocky started wearing him down did Charles become there to bit hit by round 6, but early on charles was on his toes countering with sharp right hands.

Riddick Bowe certainly would be. Bowe had leaky defense, Holyfield a former cruiserweight teed off on him. Bowe loved to fight on the inside and though he was very good at it, this might be his demise against Marciano. Ali wasnt there to be hit, you got that right, but then again George Chuvalo was able to work in close and pound away enough at ali that he made him **** blood, Larry Holmes would ALWAYS be there to be hit by right hands, He never EVER escaped this problem and in practically every one of his big title fights he was hit by big right hands.

Are you sure? when is it proven that a 220lb has a better chin than a 190lb man? For the record, Marcianos record against men above 200lb is 11-0 with 11 knockouts.

We don't know for sure, but I also suspect that Holmes or Ali simply would not be able to keep Rocky on the end of a jab for 15 rounds without rocky getting in close or troubling him once. Don't forget, if Rocky didn't knock you out with 1 or 2 punches(which he was very capable of doing) he would just hammer away at you with 80-100 power punches a round breaking your body down physically and mentally.

Rocky is a puncher/Swarmer which means he has alot of different ways of Winning. He can knock you out with one punch, he can break you down with a swarm of punches stopping you, or he can outwork you with effective aggresion and higher volume of punches and win on the judges cards.

It depends on the style. against a holmes, he will attempt to work inside and hurt larry and outswarm and outslug larry capitilizing on larrys major flaws, against a foreman he will have to some punishment early in order to outlast him and if the 6th round shows up then Marciano knows hes in position to win. Against an Ali, he will attempt to outswarm him and win on points with effective aggresion, against a bowe he will try to outwork him outslug him on the inside and break him down, against a lennox he will try attack the body and setup a big sunday Roundhouse Right hand Home run shot, against a tyson he will attempt to bully him back and be rough and physical on the inside with him. Will it work out everytime? No, but Rocky will have success and defintley beat some of these men.

Not true. I believe Modern Boxing style started around the 1940s, Watch the film closely. Stances and basic fundamentals in the 1940s were started by some boxers during that era that happened to be the same stance and basic fundamentals fighters fought with in the modern era...Boxing made a big leap in the 1940s, and by the 50s pretty much everyone fought that way.

I dont see what your obbsession with the 60s is. PLENTY of 1950s heavyweights Liston, Patterson, Machen, Folley, Williams, Moore ALL had quite a bit success while over the hill in the mid 1960s.

I wouldn't say so, but its a matter of opinion

I don't think many 220lbers were faster than a Walcott, Charles or Moore...Except Maybe Ali. I think Rocky showed he was very capable of fighting competitivley with 220lb ATG fighters.

 

"much harder to stop a great big man than a great little man"

The 230 or more pounders of history were not great. Foster could not beat big men, but Langford, Dempsey, Louis, Satterfield, Moore, etc could. All we know about Marciano is that he knocked out every 200 plus pounder he fought, including Louis, and convincingly. My opinion is Marciano punched as hard for his size as anyone.

And don't get me wrong. I think Lewis and Vitali would be too big for Marciano. I think he could stop Simon (and also Willard and Carnera). These giants were more defined by big than by great or even good.

As for Ted Lowry, he hardly proves that big heavyweights take punches better. The opposite, in fact. I don't think you can carry one opponent too far. Look at Sonny Liston going the distance twice with Burt Whitehurst.

 

Janitor, did I hear you say You don't have Marciano in your top 10 all time heavyweight head to head list yet you have evander holyfield in there? I do think you vastly overrate Vitali Klitschkko. He quit on his stool vs a feather fisted cruiserweight with 2 rounds to go when all he neeeded to do was hold him off with 1 arm and and byrd was no threat to hurt him. ...Other fighters have fought 12 round fights and lasted the ditance with the same exact injury...if Vitali can't fight through the pain of 2 rounds vs harmless opponent, then how is he going to react if put through deep waters late in the fight by a Pitbull like Rocky?

 

You make some Great points BUT I am still in Florida on vacation and it would take too long to answer each one right now.

 

Foster was just an example. I agree that Rocky would stop Simon, Willard and Carnera too, BUT wouldn't stop guys like Ali or Holmes.

When he stopped Vingo, Vingo was only 2 days past his 20th birthday and he never fought a bout that was scheduled for more then 6 rounds before he fought Rocky, PLUS he only had 1 KO in his last 7 bouts and that was to a boxer making his pro debut.

 

Henry,

I don't think its fair to primarily rely on Vingos Record(which boxrec states at a very good 16-1 with lone loss to top prospect Joe Lindsay by close decision). I used to have a emailed newspaper clip of Marciano-Vingo fight(I think I lost it unfortunetley) and they described Vingo's record at closer to 25-3 I believe. Boxrec still may not have found all of Vingo's bouts yet, but maybe they have.

Though Vingo had not fought past 6 rounders, he was still considered one of the contries best young prospects(along with Joe Lindsay Bob Baker and Clarence Henry) at 6'4 195lb 20 years old who was good enough to be fighting at the Garden and whom his handlers most likely expected to grow out to a solid 220lb by age 25 and be a threat to the heavyweight champion with his size, punching power, and skills. Charlie Goldman specifully told Rocky before the fight that Vingo could punch very hard, and Reg Gutteridge a marciano critic, suprisingly said that Carmine Vingo was an extremley hard hitter.

I think this rates as a good win for a Young Rocky. When you look at his record you see alot of old names Walcott, Louis, Moore, Charles that he gets critisized for because of age....and this win completled defied the norm, because it was a win over a YOUNG hot shot 6'4 Prospect(which marciano mostly gets critisized for failing to facing Young/Tall/Prospect) in a fearsome slugfest that both men got in there licks and the winner of this fight was promised to get a main even against Roland Lastarza in the Garden next. Vingo was no experienced world class contender, but he was another James Shueler, Henry Snow Flakes...All top young prospects with huge potential having there career cut short.

 

I just think that Vingo was rushed a little. He never fought anyone that was close to Rocky's class. With only 7 KO's in a career of 18, and 1 out of his last 8, doesn't really say that he was a Great puncher. He should have never fought Rocky at that early stage of his career. As far as Snowflakes goes, he was by far a better fighter then Vingo.

 

Levi Billups who was 6 ft. and not so well conditioned went the distance with Lennox Lewis and a few fight after Michael Moorer Ko'd him in 3, he was also Ko'd in 1 by Orlin Norris and in 2 by Jeremy Williams and 1 by Corrie Sanders...he was able to survive against Lewis should that reflect on Lennox's all time power...also Lewis had 30 lbs on Zelco Marovic and could not stop him (styles make fights but neither of these men came close to winning.

Suprised that you would compare Bob Foster who was notorious frail against Heavys ( and was Smoked against smallish Frazier in 2) with Marciano....The better men of Marciano's era dominated the bigger men but Foster was Ko'd by small Doug Jones who gave Ali (big for that time fits)

As for Ted Lowry he was a durable man who also went the distance with Archie Moore and Jimmy Bivens( Lowrey was stopped 2 times, Harry "Kid Matthews and Lee Q Murry in his career. In his 1st fight with Rocky Marciano was 3 lbs heavier than Tedd at 180 (Rocky's 20th pro fight)and 6 lbs heavier for the next ...Lowry was also a sparring partner and was a gym rat so he was always in condition and was a surviver but Marciano beat him 2 times so to say he was called in with 2 weeks notice, so what ,he was always fit.

Do you really think Cockell had Rocky in deep...Rocky bounced him all over the ring...You call that DEEP come on...Peralta had Foreman deep, Mercer had Lewis Deep, Jones had Ali deep

 

Like I stated before, I just used Foster as an example. When he tried boxing heavier opponents, he did not have the same succes as he did against lighter ones, some goes for Duran.

Foreman was still learning when he fought Peralta and Rocky was in his prime when he fought Cockell. In his title bouts, I think Rocky looked his worse when he fought Cockell. Ted also told me that Rocky never hurt him in the 20 rounds they fought.

 

Perhaps he was not much of a finisher, because according to both the newspapers, Charlie Goldman, and Reg Gutteridge, and most importantly Marciano....Vingo could really tag hard with 1 punch. Marciano said in between rounds 1 and 2 "I have never been hit so hard in my entire life"

Quite Possibly, Snowflakes had the goods and defeated Ring Magazine top 10 in his firs couple years pro. but Vingo was on the same direction of path Snowflakes was in, even if Snowflakes did fight and beat more experienced contenders than Vingo was fighting....Vingo certainly had alot of upside and huge potential with his youth, Size, Power, and Skills. If Vingo had beaten Marciano, his next fight would have been a main event in the Garden vs a Ring Magazine top 10 opponent. How much do you know about SnowFlakes's talent and how much have you studied Vingo's talent for proper comparison?

Your quite possibly right, but he did fight a very close fight with Joe Lindsay who went on to beat Earl Walls, Jimmy Slade, and Bob Satterfield....But then again how much more experienced and better was Rocky? Rocky had 24 fights, but against no one in ring magazine top 10.....This to me was a big fight for both of them two young prospects fighting in the garden for a main event. Vingo certainly showed in this fight he was near Rocky's class as a prospect, as he hurt rocky mutiple times, came close to flooring him, and had him buzzed throughout the fight....If he doesnt end up in a coma...who knows how his career turns out...Maybe he retires early, maybe he drifts off into life as a clubfighter, or maybe he bounces back gets more mature and comes back as a top contender and him and Rocky had a huge legacy defining Trilogy in the mid 1950s


Btw, Was Johnny Skhor ever rated in Ring Magazine monthly top 10 in the 1940s after his big uspet win over Tami Mauriello in 47?

 

I don't think so. He looked on the decline to me. I think Rockys prime was 1951-1953, although he did have one last good performance against moore in 55...but he was really slowing down by that time, all that wear and tear was breaking his 32 year old body down especially with his style.