Larry Holmes .Vs. Joe Louis

I think we better make sure Larry can beat guys like Witherspoon, Thomas, Tubbs, Coetzee, Dokes, and Page before we pick him over a guy like Joe Louis. Larry left alot of unaswered questions during his era, struggled with his best opposition winning on razor thin controversial decisions which he never granted rematches, threw his WBC belt in the trash to avoid fighting WBC mandatory, picked on green inexperienced fighters rather than unifiying the title with a more experienced Alpha Champion. For all of Larry's great skills and heart, he also had flaws too which is why he struggled with the 80s best.

 

Dont worry Mr Bill, you dont have to figure me out. ... I already know you are the type of guy who thinks bigger is better and are more of a record book guy than a guy that has seen it or did it.....my response was a counter to a earlier post that if Billy Conn can outbox Louis, Holmes would also. I know a lot of guys that are only big and cant fight and they give me the size argument all the time. Some small guys are freaks, not all ,but guys like Marciano looked beatable until you got in the ring with him. I think a lot of guys are thinking the same thing about Manny Pac. Thank Goodness for Holmes that he avoided the better right hand punchers of his day...and yes he gave up a title not to fight Page, would not rematch Weaver, would not fight Dokes,Thomas to unify and when Renaldo Snipes got dropped twice vs Coetzee and King helped rob Gerrie of the decision...Holmes jumped all over a Snipes fight and it almost back fired on him. Snipes however never showed in any fight that he was a puncher, he won a close decision over Eddie Muhamad and really did not show power vs any of the top Heavys he fought other than Holmes. I am not 120 but beleive it or not over 50 and can still handle myself pretty well with guys a lot younger or bigger LOL...I looked at your ratings and I think they are some of the worst I have seen but thats your opinion and you are entitled to it. I respect everyone's opinion as long as they know how do so respectfully even though It may be very far from my own opinion or what I beleive to be the truth and I respect everyone that knows how respect in return, you can not agree with everyone.

 

Bummy....Didn't holmes management purposely steer him clear of the right handed punchers of the era?


* In an interview for Ring Magazine issue I have, Pinklon Thomas was serious as ever when he said to the interviewer larry holmes ducked me in 84-85, said larry wanted no part of him, and its a fight he always wanted. Pinklon sounded very firm and honest when he said it.

 

Old-timers who saw Louis as well as Holmes could be rotating in their graves. To them, Louis was "the perfect fighting machine".

On the other hand, without the rose-tinted glasses, Holmes, a great boxer, appears to match up quite well with the shuffling Bomber.

I'm still taking Joe Louis, a great tactician himself, one way or another.

I think Holmes, however great, was prone to sudden serious mistakes. This is fatal against a stalking beast such as Louis. One right-hand opening could be the ballgame. And the savvy Louis would be salivating for it for 15 rounds.

If Holmes can stay on boxing mode, jabbing and moving throughout, he has a good chance. But, if forced into exchanges, Louis' chances increase greatly. And I see this as extremely possible. Louis could jab and thus disrupt Holmes. And Joe would continually try to bang the body and rush Holmes to the ropes, something very feasible and dangerous for Larry. Except for portions of a round, Holmes was not particularly swift on his feet himself. He will not dart away from trouble all night.

Holmes is tough, collected and has endurance. Louis is and does, too.

Joe Louis brings too much for Holmes IMHO. Holmes can run, but not hide all night.

 

True and his best fight was over Cooney( frail and Shavers( one dimensional...I think the fighter he avoided Coetzee,Thomas,Dokes,Page and a more polished Weaver would have been a better test for Holmes than Cooney or Shavers. I heard Holmes got Knock out by Page in a sparring session but could not confirm. I know you see the revelance of not fighting the best of your era and Chris P. and Old Fogey and a few others also see it but some guys want to keep there eyes closed when it comes to certain fighters... I really dont know if Larry ever corrected the weakness he showed in his amatuer days when he was Ko'd badly at the end of his amatuer career. The weakness was not test against the best 2 fisted punchers of his day...too many he avoided

 

YES, I REMEMBER THE ERA BEING VERY CORRUPT...King was caught paying off John Ort of Ring magazine to rate Tom Prator( one of Holmes opponents) higher. I was a boxing fan and knew a lot of Holmes in the amatuers as well as other fighters. I was involved with a group that owned a few fighters so we did our due dilligence.I could not beleive how Blatent King was withhis control of the Alpha bets and the rating system. I like Holmes and thought he had good skills but very disapointed with the way he avoided the right hand and 2 fisted punchers of his day. Thomas, Tate, Coetzee,Dokes and Page all called him out but Holmes and king were content to pull strings....People think I dont like the guy but I just cant forgive him as a fan....he did not prove he could handle the test he failed in the amatuers...I think you understand what im saying,,Suzie

 

:goodgood and fair post

 

Holmes signed to fight Coetzee.. Coetzee's people backed out of the deal - Not Holmes.....

 

Pinklon Thomas was a serious drug abuser in the 80's. That kind of puts a serious dent in his credibility.

 

I found this...This interview took place in the late 1990s

Pinklon Thomas: The Real Deal
By Ted Kluck


TK - Were there any fighters, over the course of your career, that you wish you would have had a chance to fight, but didn't?

{Pinklon} I would fight Larry Holmes tomorrow. (Smiling) For nothing.

TK - Weren't you supposed to fight him in 1982 after your win over James "Quick" Tillis?

{Pinklon} I was a fill-in for the Tillis fight and I was working with Lou Duva at the time. It was a Don King promotion that took place in Cleveland. The winner of the fight was supposed to get a shot at Holmes. I stopped Tillis in the 8th and expected to get the fight with Holmes. Instead, Holmes got on his bike and rode it far away from me.

 

We have been over this before. Holmes fought Witherpsoon, Smith, Bey ( who beat Page in a head to head match to fight Holmes next ), and Spinks at the tail end of his career. Dokes was the other alphabet champion. The Dokes vs Holmes match was poltically hard match to make. I suppose Holmes could have fought Thomas instead of Spinks, but he picked Spinks instead, lost the first fight, but was clearly robbed in the re-match. It should be noted that Holmes did sign to fight Coetzee.

The important thing to note here is fighters like Witherpsoon, Norton, Cooney, and so on were MUCH better heavyweights than the likes of Conn, Pastor, Godoy, and Farr who Louis most certainly struggled with on film.

None of Holmes decisions reeked of controversy that he won, however we know Louis was involved in at least one gift decision. Holmes on the other hand was involved in a robbery against him.

I had hoped you had outgrown your double standard of criticizing one fighter, then casting a blind eye at the other. Louis struggled more on flim, and had trouble with good boxers, which of course Holmes is.

PS: Do you think its fair game to bring up your own thread on how Louis avoided the best black challangers while he was champion?

 

Very smart post.

 

Snipes has / had a good right hand.... It was hard...... Snipes' problem was, he couldn't fight for beans...... His skills sucked...... But, the dude was ripped and strong and punching well in 1981.... That's all I'm gonna say there........ Peace...

MR.BILL

 

I too, respect most people on the Forum... However, we get some vicious dudes playing hard-ball here.... I've been beamed repeatedly.... I'm always taking my base....

I also get the feeling we have either "Old Farts" caught in the past on the Forum, or "New Kids" in there 20's talking completely out their ass..... The Forum is like a box of candies.... You never know what you'll get....

MR.BILL

 

Who did Holmes beat?