Jack Dempsey and Harry Wills

Not "everything," how accomplished or highly rated a fighter is is not speculation, it's right there on paper.

At best, Folley's/Machen's extra skill/talent gave them the potential to be better, but in their own times were no more accomplished or highly rated than guys like Fulton, Sharkey, etc. were in their times.

So what did Johansson have over Machen, or Cooper over Folley, or Satterfield over Valdez, that allowed them to compete with them?

How do you know Machen wouldn't have just crumbled under Fulton's power like he did to Johansson? Or Firpo wouldn't have landed that right hand at will on Valdez like Satterfield did? Maybe Willard would've just been too big and powerful for Folley like Liston was? And so on.

Regardless of how they may have "looked" on film or in the gym, Liston's opponents never actually proved themselves to be a level above Dempsey's opponents.

 

Not it isn't, Godfrey was only rated around #6 or 7 in the division at that time. Gibbons and Wills were rated #2 and 1 respectively, and Tunney pursued fights with them instead, and then went after the champion himself. That's the complete opposite of ducking - he was going after the highest rated guys in the division, the ones he was supposed to be fighting. There's no justification for saying someone is "ducking" a guy who is rated much lower than the one's he's actually fighting.

If Tunney had declined to pursue a fight with Wills and went after Godfrey instead, then he'd be getting flack for avoiding Wills and going after a much less accomplished and lower rated fighter in Godfrey.

What "top black fighters" are you referring to that were superior to the top white fighters??

The Langford that you keep criticizing Dempsey for not fighting was twice whupped by Fred Fulton around that same time. Fulton was rated as the clear #1 contender when Dempsey beat him, over anyone else white or black. The notion that Dempsey should've given more priority to the color of his opponents' skin rather than their actual quality/ranking when choosing opponents is completely nonsensical and revisionist.

The only top black fighter who distinguished himself as better than the top whites around this time was Wills, and that wasn't until a year or two after Dempsey won the title (when he beat Fulton). And in fact, he didn't prove himself better than all the top white fighters Dempsey fought either - he refused to fight Tunney and was badly outclassed by Sharkey, who also whupped Godfrey as well.

 

Yes, we can only speculate if Liston's victims were or were not better than Dempsey's, but what is not that speculation is that by drawing the colour line Dempsey avoided several dangerous opponents. In addition, he even ducked the best white contender out there - Greb. This is a far cry from cleaning out a division - which for example Liston did from 1958-1962.

I mean, there are those who have Dempsey just one or two places from Ali, who cleaned out the division several times. That's just plain overrating.

 

It all depends on criteria. If you are only ranking accomplishment then clearly Dempsey would not be that high. But, if you take into account other factors, such as head-to-head outcomes and how you think they's fare in other eras than it is not out of wack to rate Dempsey so high.

Still, we should all agree Dempsey was one of the best.

 

Accordind to Ray Arcel from one of the Dempsey bio's Wills was overatted and didnt stand a chance against Jack.

 

I regard Wills quite highly but think he was custom-made for Dempsey to completely blow out.

 

How would you know? what film do you have to judge? for all we know Wills might have been another liston. Dempsey may have been made for wills. Dempsey was stunned hurt/knocke down/knocked out by far less fighters than wills. dempsey had his flaws on film.

 

Because I read books and old newspapers. That is how I formed this brilliant summation, mi amigo. Wills was big and rather lumbering, slow of foot and hand according to what I have read over the last 20 years of my boxing research. He was a strong S.O.B., for sure, but his skill set seemed all wrong for a motivated Dempsey. Sounds like a disaster waiting to happen.

 

Liston didn't "clean out" the division in those years any more thoroughly than Dempsey did in 1918-1919. Dempsey beat the reigning undisputed champion (Willard), the consensus #1 contender (Fulton), and a string of other title contenders on his way to becoming the champ. Greb and Wills weren't considered top title challengers until after that, and got their spots by beating contenders that Dempsey had already supplanted himself.

 

YES HE DID. Liston beat the BEST contenders out there Williams, Valdez, Machen, Folley. Dempsey DID NOT beat the two best heavyweight contenders out there Greb or Wills. He also drew the color line which means he was refusing to fight black fighters, while liston was knocking out top rated black and white contenders.

But he never beat Wills, Langford, Norfolk, or Greb. These are big fights dempsey missed out on. Liston missed out on no one. Liston ducked no one, While dempsey ducked langford in 1917 and drew the color line.

Greb and Wills and Norfolk were 3 outstanding challengers that Dempsey did not fight. a huge black mark. Imagine Liston not beating Machen Folley and Williams. thats how bad it is.


Fulton was NOT # 1. So what if he beat sam langford, Wills had already beaten sam langford 4 or 5 times by 1917 and had beaten a better younger version of langford too. Wills was ALWAYS the # 1 since 1915...and wills destroyed fulton broke 3 of his ribs. Fulton was not that good...wills was world class

 

In fact if u want to hear something embarrasing....165lb Harry greb actually did better against dempseys heavyweight opponents than dempsey did, and greb did not draw the color line taking on kid norfolk, who dempsey wanted no part of.

 

tis true. dempsey had his flavor he preferred and it was definitely not the smaller, craftier fighter.

and look, this whole who ducked who **** is intellectually embarrassing. The champs fought who got them the most money, decided per their managers.. It's called show business, folks. U2 ain't gonna play your local swill hole tavern. They play Wembley.

Some of you ****ers need to grow up.

 

Just imagine if Sonny Liston had drew the color line like dempsey did. that means you can take Machen, Valdez, Williams, Folley, Bethea, Summerlin all off his resume. dempsey should be punished for it. He eliminates 50% of his top competition by drawing the color line. Liston beat ALL of the best heavyweights of his era, and few he didn't beat were the ones unwilling to fight him due to fear. Dempsey on the otherhand did not beat the best of his era including of the 3 best heavyweights of his era, drew the color line, and refused matches from top contenders. its no comparison, liston by a landslide.

 

Williams and Valdez weren't contenders when Liston beat them.

Neither of them were considered top contenders before Dempsey won the title. Greb had only just broke into the division earlier that year, Wills didn't distinguish himself as a serious contender until about a year later.

What black fighters were considered top contenders in 1918-1919?

What top white contenders was Liston knocking out?

He missed out on Johansson, Cooper, and Lavorante.

In fact, Liston only had about 4 or 5 total fights against rated heavyweights in the seven years before he fought Patterson, so I would say he must've "missed out" on quite a few contenders on his way up.

How many HW contenders did Liston fight in the first 2 or 3 years of his career? Liston didn't fight a rated HW of any kind until at least five years into his career, by which time Dempsey had already whupped a host of contenders and the reigning champion.

No it isn't, those three weren't considered top contenders in 1918/1919 like Machen and Folley were in 1960.

 

No he doesn't, the majority of top competitors before and during his title reign happened to be white.