Jack Dempsey and Harry Wills

Who was "automatically" getting higher spots?

Fulton only got a higher spot than Langford after he clobbered him, ditto with Sharkey after he beat Wills and Godfrey.

So is that why numerous papers were lobbying on behalf of Wills to get a title shot?

 

Shame on you, Jack Johnson!

 

No doubt at 32 plus Johnson drew the color line ... however he did fight just a few black fighters in his career ... if you are here for humor that's fine but if you intend to be taken serious, stepup !

 

Johnson didn't draw the colour line... he faught many racial laws, and shagged many a white gal.... lmao.

 

Absolutely.

The plain fact is that Wills pursued Dempsey incessantly... worse than Clay did Liston, and akin to Johnson chasing Burns. Dempsey made a couple of false starts when public demand (yep. The white masses who just wanted to see a good fight) hit crescendo, but I don't believe for a moment that he had any intention of ever facing a righteous worthy if his pigmentation didn't match.

The real shame is that 1919-1920 Dempsey would have, as someone illuminated earlier, beaten Wills. If Wills was smart, he would come out aggressively, but he usually did not. Dempsey was tough, tough, to deal with in his (very brief) prime.

Greb? Greb made Dempsey --1920 Dempsey-- look like a dunce the first time they tangled in NYC. Dempsey, pissed, said "get him back" and Greb willingly obliged 2 months later when Dempsey was training for Miske. It was an "honest-to-goodness battle" according to the New York Times and Dempsey got humiliated again. Greb beat his a*s. And that's as good a fact as any objective researcher can arrive at. Greb had two eyes at this point and was at his supernatural best.

And here's the clincher: When Greb gave Tiger Flowers a title shot Dempsey criticized Greb -publically- for giving a black man a shot. Later, while training for Tunney, Dempsey invited Flowers to come on as one of his sparring partners. Flowers, remembering this slight, turned Dempsey down. I have come to believe that Dempsey had a secret, his public false starts were smoke screens and -he was, personally, a man of the color line. I've amended my earlier position. Dempsey also wanted to retire undefeated and if that is your goal why would you risk giving a title shot to a phenomenon like Greb or a serious big man like Wills?

As it was, Greb ascended to legendary though unsung status. Flowers became the herald and the model for Joe Louis and thanks to Greb became the first black champion since Johnson. Dempsey, well, he remains a favorite of mine and a terror in any head-to-head match-up, but his legacy is tainted.

 

Dempsey should have fought Wills but I really dont think it was his fault. The powers that be did not make that fight...but it is a mar on him...still I think he would have beaten Wills

 

They really are very embarrassing times for the land of oportunity. Dempsey was 'Endorsed' when he obliterated a beaten man, mostly whilst trying to get off the ring canvas. Willard.

Johnson was 'hated' for giving an old man a 'deserved' beating on Independance day, 1910. Jeffries.

Yet, Joe Walcott, George Dixon and Joe Gans were loved and continued to be.

Very difficult times to get a real grip of.

 

Stonehands, excellent post ....

I believe Dempsey definately would have fought Wills if Kearns and Rickard would have set him free to do so but BOTH were strongly against it. Through out his career one or the other had tremendous influence over him. Yes Dempsey could have said "fu'k off" but he knew his career was driven by those guys and went with it ... could he have bucked them, of course ... I just believe he made a mistake ..

Who would have won ? I don't know. Will was much bigger and much better than anyone Dempsey ever fought up till he lost his title. However, Will was also 6 plus years older and really was himself past his best by 1922 or so ... Wills was in his own prime while Willard was champ ... it would have been a hell of a fight, one that would have really given us the measure of Dempsey but we will never know ... this is the huge asterik on Dempsey to me ...

 

This is the last time I'm going to adress you, because I think you're embarssing the way you disclaim a racism that was rampant. Top black contenders like Jackson, Langford, Wills, Godfrey etc never got a shot at the title because of their race, and white fighters at the time benifited because of this.

Are you actually going to deny that racism played a large part in boxing up until atleast WWII?!!!

(Even ff this is a bit inageble I think a deserve some cudos since I'm badly **** faced, and since, after all, English ain't my native language)

By the way, glad to see you here again Stonehands. Don't be a stranger.

 

That depends on what "part" exactly you're trying to claim racism played. So far it seems you've tried to pin just about every shortcoming of black fighters on "racism." So if there just happens to be a span of time in which most of the best heavyweights happen to be white, then that must somehow be tied to racism.

There's an example of what I'm talking about. Godfrey didn't a title shot because of his race? There was plenty of reasons Godfrey didn't get a title shot, and those are legit reasons that others fighters, white or black, don't get title shots. He lost several of his most important fights, and he was ostracized for participating in a number of bizarre/controversial DQ results. There were white fighters right alongside him in the rankings that were just as highly rated or just as credible, and they didn't end up getting title shots either. But because Godfrey's black, that means it must be strictly racism that prevented him from getting a shot.

 

I disagree. harry wills beat the consensus 3 best heavyweights in the world from 1913-1918 Sam Mcvea, Joe Jeanette, and Sam Langford. these were the overhelming challengers for johnson and willards crown. While fulton did beat sam langford in 1917, that is defintley enough to overtake Wills since wills beat langford MULTIPLE times.

Yes the Powell(who was 19-3 and seen as a very bright young contender spoken highly of by marciano) knockout loss removed him from the # 2 spot, but I highly doubt it was enough to remove him from the top 10.

do you have the ring magazine monthly issue to verify this statement. Valdez was rated # 2 coming into 1959, and I doubt he suddenly aged in a matter of a couple months. I have film of Valdez knocking out mcmutry in december of 58 and valdez looked very brutal, still possessing top power and finishing ability. even after the liston loss, Valdez went on to knockout top 10 rated Brian London(who had just challenged patterson for the title)

If thats the case then why did he crawl all the way back up to a # 2 rating in 1959, get denied a title shot from Cus Damato out of fear, as well as beating most of europeans best during this period?

I wouldn't say that. The Ring Magazine system could be very flawed. There are many cases in history where fighters got high undeserved rankings by Ring Magazine. In Cleveland Williams case, he had trouble getting big fights during this period because no one wanted to fight him due to his size power and speed. Considering Williams was rated in the top 5 within a year of fighting Liston for a 3 year period, I believe its safe to say Williams was a top 5 fighter in the world when Liston beat him. Or does your agenda go strictly by Ring Magazine ratings? Did Williams suddenly get better from 1961 compared to 1960 when Liston massacred him? Can you name me(outside of Liston) 5 heavyweights in the world that would have beaten cleveland williams in 1960?

Then why was Valdez rated # 2 going into 1959 and why did Floyd Pattersons Manager denie him a title shot?

It does not mean that much when a certain black fighter, Harry Wills, has already beaten sam langford at least 4 times.

Disagree. Besides, without ring magazine rankings you have no idea who truelly were considered the best heavyweights out there. Certainly Mcvea, Jeanette, Langford, Wills were being talked about very highly in the newspapers all the way up to 1917. In fact today, historians hold these men in higher esteem than the white hopes of the era. History is very important indicator to judge. If we didnt have history, then we wouldnt realize that Gene Tunney retired with THREE hall of fame heavyweights rated # 1, # 2, # 3 in the Ring Magazine annuel ratings.

Summerlin was 19-1, was Michigan Heavyweight Champion, and was considered by detroit free press "A Great Prospect". Summerlin would crack the top 10 Ring Magazine within months of liston beating him. I see a trend here... Sonny Liston is defeating men who would go on to achieve good things afterward meaning Liston beat these guys on there best legs.

It seems to me ur putting all ur eggs in one basket with Fulton. Fulton was only top contender because he beat langford, but this win gets tainted because Harry Wills had already done so to langford multiple times. Another of Dempseys victims pre title, Billy Miske(who drew with ur "Consensus" # 1 fulton), was beaten by both Kid Norfolk and Harry Greb. Certainly Greb and Norfolk would have been rated top 5 during this time, why didnt dempsey take on either of them? Then theres Harry Wills, who went undefeated in 1918-1919 and had alreayd beaten top contender langford long before fulton did.

I would say Ring Magazine ratings 1918-1919 would have looked like

1. Harry Wills
2. Fred Fulton
3. Harry Greb
4. Kid Norfolk
5. Tommy Gibbons


Even if you switch Fulton and Wills, This still means Dempsey only took on ONE of the top 5 consensus Ring Magazine rated top 5 from 1918-1919. I would say this is not called cleaning out your division.

 

My2sense, On Godfrey.............



TUNNEY SPURNS GODFREY MATCH

"plans for a battle between geney tunney, former american lightheavyweight champion, and george godfrey, negro heavyweight, as the feature attraction on the annuel christmas boxing carnival in madison square garden on dec 18, today were abandoned. it was announced by the officials of the fund. billy gibson manager of gene tunney declinded the prooffered match. according the the fund officials, gibson asserted harry wills is the only negro heavyweight tunney will box." - los angeles times nov. 4 1925





EASTERN SNAPSHOTS by W. Rollo Wilson



Nov.12, 1925-The Baron of Leiperville is home again with wonderous tales of the mighty deeds of the "Shadow" along the gilded slope. The "Shadow" is just another way of denoting Gorger George Godfrey, Jimmy's (Dougherty) outsize white elephant. For white elephant George seems now to be. Nobody wants to fight him for love or money. Mr. Wills unostentatiously draws the color line. Mr. Tunney is more blatant in his announcement to the same effect. "I'll fight Harry Wills," broadcasts James Joseph, "but I draw the color line on George Godfrey."



Two things may be on the mind of the Apollo of Greenwich Village, Perhaps he thinks that one "shot" with Wills would give him enough of the filthy lucre for his future earthly needs. Win or lose he would be "in." Fighting Ole Black Lightning [Godfrey] would be a case of all to lose and nothing to gain, he probably thinks. At this time Billy Gibson and Tunney are saying that the Big Three of Boxing are Dempsey, Wills, and the modest Gene. Godfrey would fain make it a foursome, but you can be jolly well sure that the triumvira will continue to say him nay.



One of the first acts of [Dougherty] on his arrival was to release another challenge in the general direction of the above-mentioned Big Three. His latest offer is this:

All any promoter has to do is get Harry, Gene or Jack to sign the papers and pay them whatever they want. Godfrey will come in without asking for a dollar. The aftermath will provide the Dougherty clan with all they will want, because they feel that George can take any of the three.



As is well known Dougherty and Dempsey are the best of friends. Last summer a year ago (1924) Dempsey visited the baronial halls (Leiperville). While here the subject of a bout with George was broached. Jack declared that if he fought at all he would fight Wills, but not Godfrey. Jimmy pressed him for the reason and he said : "Godfrey is a big strong fellow and is young, Wills is getting older and I think he will be the easier man of the two. That is the reason I prefer to fight him, if I fight." - ROLLO WILSON was often referred to as "the dean of the Black Press.




"Tunney wanted nothing to do with Godfrey--plain and simple--too tough a fight. Godfrey is vastly under-rated. His record and career are somewhat mired in mystery. So many DQ's, knockouts and damn mystifying losses. I have no doubt, for instance, that he had the cuffs on against Sharkey. The high number of DQ's has more to do with him fighting to order than it does with him being sloppy. Tunney could outbox most heavies and I don't doubt that he could outbox George Godfrey for 5 or six or even ten rounds. However, George was fast for his size, was adept at chasing men down and could hit like a team of mules. If this were a fifteen round fight, I see Godfrey having a hell of chance catching up to Gene. Remember that Tunney's heavyweight resume is not that long or overly impressive. His two best wins were against Dempsey--over 10 rounds--and it is probable that Jack was past it then. Godfrey handled Larry Gaines fairly easily and Gaines was a boxer in both the mold and style of Tunney. Gaines stated that he feared only two men in his life, his father and George Godfrey. George was a beast--big, athletic, huge puncher and surprisingly good speed and movement for a man his size. I think in his prime, 1925-1931, he was about as good as it got. Nobody really wanted to fight George, and for good reason. Tunney avoided him like the plague. In his prime, with no handcuffs, and this is strictly my opinion, I think he could have beaten, Tunney, Sharkey, Carnera and maybe even Dempsey(certainly a post 1926 Dempsey)."- Boxing historian Kevin Smith Author of Sundowners





"Not only did Tunney duck Godfrey but so did Dempsey and Wills. From late 1923 Baron (James) Dougherty issued challenges almost daily for Wills to take on Godfrey, who was Philadelphia's greatest drawing card. Promoters Herman Taylor and Bobby Gunnis figured such a match in Phila would do between $250 K to $500 K. and the winner would be the "logical challenger" for Dempsey. Dougherty offered all kinds of perks to Wills including that Godfrey would take the match for $ 1. I think Godfrey was the most handcuffed fighter of all time. When we interviewed Dougherty's son Howard, who was also a promoter and drove Godfrey across country for his campaign in California, He talked of all the concessions they had to make in order for Godfrey to meet high rated fighters including carrying opponents, fouling out, etc. His loss to Risko was a case in point as some fair eyewitness scribes have noted that Godfrey easily handled Risko for the first eight rounds at Ebbetts Field then Risko made a courageous stand in the last two rounds and they awarded him the decision. His first two matches with Renault were "smellers" and his "foul-outs" were "ordered." Today People don't realize that one leading black challenger (Wills) was tolerated because of his "good name" with the New York commission but two top black challengers were frowned on. Godfrey and his management (Dougherty) tried to alleviate the situation by attempting to lure Wills into the ring by any means, but of course Wills and Paddy Mullins were not about to risk their position that they earned by taking on young, and very dangerous opponent like Godfrey.I still believe Godfrey was the most "handcuffed" boxer of all time. Being the "most handcuffed boxer of all time" (my opinion) doesn't mean that he was the best of his period, just the "most feared" with the cuffs off. By the way check out photos of Godfrey pre 1926 before his frustrations caused him to gain weight. His body was ripped with muscle and he was always in top condition."- Chuck Hasson Boxing Historian

 

I can. Chuck Wepner, Randy, Neumann, and Larry Middleton. All 3 were top 10 rated in the "toughest era" in heavyweight history, mid 1970s.

I don't see how you could realistically say this. Floyd Patterson, Eddie Machen, Zora Folley, Cleveland Williams, Ingemar Johansson, Harold Johnson....all of these men look outstanding on film.