Jack Dempsey and Harry Wills

I dont give baseball players credit prior to 1947 when Jackie Robinson broke the color line. Baseball prior to 1947 did not include blacks, thats pretty much wiping out 50% of the top opposition. What a joke. That is why white players like Mickey Mantle deserve so much more credit than previous ones, because he dominated in a era where top black hitters and pitchers were allowed to compete. Mantle faced black pitchers, Gehrig Ruth Foxx Cobb did NOT. I rate Mickey Mantle in my top 5 hitters of all time. The most naturally talented hitter of all time, who played injured throughout his career and missed many games yet still put up great numbers. Mantle could hit the ball 600 feet from both sides of the plate. How many men could do that?

 

I was thinking of 60 home runs in a season. Anyway, I don't want to get into baseball, but my point was that Foxx would have been considered a rival to Ruth and a man who could break his record BECAUSE he was white and played in the big leagues. He was also good. Gibson was not considered a direct rival of Ruth BECAUSE he was black and had to play in the Negro leagues. He was also good. Who was the better between Foxx and Gibson? Or perhaps even between Ruth and Gibson? The racism of the time makes it next to impossible to judge.

 

"But don’t you think somebody might lick you?" I get asked. "Don’t you ever worry about it?"

I don’t want to seem like I’m bragging, but I don’t think anybody in the world can lick me. I’ve never been defeated in 47 fights as a pro, and right now I hope maybe I can hold the title, if I’m lucky, four or five more years and retire undefeated. At the same time, once in a while, maybe seven or eight times when I’m building up to a fight, the thought comes to me on the road or while I’m resting: "Suppose this guy licks me? What will happen to all my plans?" That’s as far as it gets. I never believe it can happen, really. It’s just one of the things that come to your mind.

I can remember, though, the night that Joe Louis and Jersey Joe Walcott fought for the first time and Walcott had Louis down twice but didn’t get the decision. I had had one pro fight 10 months before and I was sitting on the bed at home listening to the fight.

It never occurred to me that I would be the guy to knock out Louis and retire him and then knock out Walcott and take the heavyweight championship of the world. Now that I’m champion I wonder, once in a while, if there is some other kid nobody ever heard of sitting someplace and listening to one of my fights, or watching it on television, who might, in a few years, do the same thing to me.

I'm heavyweight champion of the world, but is there some young fighter somewhere who wants it as much as I did?

Out on the West Coast there’s this big, young heavyweight named Charlie Powell. He put together a lot of knockouts last year, and they were touting him as a real good prospect. That night last fall when he fought Charley Norkus I watched on television, and when the fight got under way I could see that he was a big guy and boxed nice and could punch. "You know," I thought to myself, "this might be the guy."

Collier's Magazine, May of 1955

 

Okay.

But is it fair to consider Mantle a better hitter than say, Foxx, just because he got to play in a integrated era and Foxx didn't.

Satchel Paige was once quoted as saying that Ted Williams was the best hitter he ever faced. Williams hit .406 in 1941 in a segregated league as a young man. He hit .388 in 1957 in an integrated league as an old man. Interestingly, I don't think anyone who has actually played a full season (Brett and Gwynn hit higher in fewer games) have hit higher since. If Williams had left baseball before integration, would it be fair to downgrade his achievements?

 

Yes, Ted Williams is probably # 1. I am a Red Sox fan since I live in Boston. Even though Mantle was a yankee, I still can respect what he did. Ted Williams once said of Mantle "If I could run like mantle, Id hit .400 every year" LOL. Mantle and Williams actually got in a huge race for the batting crown the year williams hit .388 he pulled away in the end and beat out mantle's .365. Mantle had beaten out Williams slightly the year before during his triple crown year. Williams was something special doing that as an old man. Willie Mays, Stan Musial, Hank Aaron, Frank Robinson, Ken Griffey jr, Barry Bonds all rank very high on my all time hitters list.

* Although if we go by the greatest hitter we have ever seen on film, 2000-2003 Barry Bonds easily takes the cake both stat wise and ability wise. He did superhuman things no one has ever done during those years, steroids or no steroids.

 

50%? What percentage of the population did blacks represent during that era?

American-born black players represented 8.2% of all major-leaguers in 2008.

 

"steroids or no steroids"

No steroids is not an option with Bonds.

He was a very good hitter prior to juicing up, but not quite top echelon. I remember an article in the SF Chronicle about Bonds and supplements in which it was pointed out that even reflexes and eyesight can now be improved with supplements. One line went something like "steroids can make an average player into an extraordinary player, an extraordinary player into a superstar, and a superstar into a monster."

Steroids made Bonds into a monster but I can't compare him with the "natural" athletes of previous generations.

 

Fair Points. the thing is Bonds was so dominating to the point of walking him intentionally with the bases EMPTY, walking him 200 times a year, and he still put up 46 homers and .363 average and .800 slugging percentage. I mean no other player on the juice ever put up goshly numbers like this. why is that?


have you ever made a top 10 hitters of all time list old fog?

 

Small sample size. The "steroid era" in baseball was only 15 years or so for a sport that existed since the late 1800s. If every player in history had Baroid's cocktail of custom juice you'd see equally gaudy numbers from others.

 

"no other player on the juice every put up goshly numbers like this. why is that?"

They weren't as good as Bonds to begin with, but take that .363. What was Bonds career average prior to juicing? I think about .285. He was a good but not great hitter. He also moved into a bandbox stadium.

Mark McGuire is another one--compare his record to Kent Hrbek up to the age of 30. Hrbek compares pretty well. But then McGuire started juicing and the rest, as they say, is history.

Top ten all time? We are way off boxing as a topic, but Ruth, Gehrig, Williams, DiMaggio, Foxx, Mays, Aaron, and Mantle would probably make this list. Musial also. I think Stan is still alive, by the way.



You avoided what I think was the key question, both for baseball and by extension boxing-----Is it fair to consider Mantle a better hitter than Foxx merely because Mantle played in an integrated era and Foxx in a segregated era? Foxx had nothing to do with his era being segregated. Mantle had nothing to do with his era being integrated.

 

Oh yeah, I couldn't let this pass without comment. All of those men faced black pitchers in exhibitions. You shouldn't be surprised to find out the best major-leaguers typically did quite well against black ballclubs. Here's a sample:

Oct. 12, 1927:

BOYS JAM TRENTON FIELD AND STOP GAME
WHEN RUTH HITS HIS THIRD HOMER OF DAY
TRENTON, N.J., Oct. 11 (UP)—Babe Ruth’s third home run of the afternoon broke up an exhibition game here today between a selected Trenton team and the Brooklyn Royal Giants, which Trenton won, 9 to 4.
The Babe and Lou Gehrig of the world’s champion New York Yankees opened their exhibition barnstorming tour, playing with Trenton, before a crowd which packed the field here.
However, after his third homer in the eighth with two on base, officials found it impossible to get the fans from the field and the game was called. Lou did not fare as well as the Babe, collecting only a double and a single out of four times at bat…
​

The two teams played another exhibition two days later. Ruth hit one home run, Gehrig two.

A group of historians at Baseball Fever published their research on hitting statistics earned during these inter-racial exhibition games, and to the surprise of nobody Babe Ruth was awesome. I can look it up if you really want to see the numbers.

Ruth also hit a home run off of Satchel Paige in an exhibition, which was described by HOF negro leaguer Buck O'Neill as the hardest-hit ball he ever saw a player hit against the prime Paige.

 

I am not questioning the mans talent. All one needs to do is watch Ruth swing on film to realize how special he was. Ruth was one of the best. so was Gehrig. STILL, there numbers did get inflated due to weak competition....was that a negro professional baseball team they faced in that article?

 

Good list, I pretty much agree on all accounts. Dimaggio though would be the last guy I rate out of the men you listed, though he was great. Just never proved himself into that godly legend class as a power hitter. Unbelievable center fielder. Read the story on how mantle tore out his knee running into the Sprinkler...how he was covering for old man dimaggio but dimaggio still made a hard catch look easy. Mantle and Joe did not get along. Dimaggio knew mantle was going to be better, and that stole all his thunder. Joe was a jealous guy.

 

Yes, the Brooklyn Royal Giants were a Negro League team.

The inflated numbers from weak competition are almost assuredly falling on the side of the negro leaguers. One historian discovered a treasure trove of exhibition statistics from Cuba, of all places, where both major league and negro league teams barnstormed for many years against local talent.

Major league teams, defined by the author as a team with at least 7 players with major league experience, compiled a 92-61 record against Cuban teams from 1908 through 1921. During a similar period (1903-1925), Negro League teams compiled a 65-71 record.

Using the same parameters, with "Major League Team" defined as an exhibition team fielding at least 7 players with major league experience, the same author found in reviewing over 100 exhibitions that "Negro League" teams got the short end of the stick, going 64-78.

The author summarizes thusly: "Against nearly full to full major league teams, the Negro League teams won 45% of the games. I think this shows the strength of the Negro League teams. They were extremely competitive in games against Major Leaguers. At the same time, it also shows the strength of the Major League teams. When complete or nearly complete ML teams played against Negro League teams they were the stronger league by this measure."

 

Great stuff. Too bad they didnt combine the leagues, would have been a very competitive era.