Dundees, Ali and the Liston dives

I liked Jimmy Cannon's explanation of the (phantom punch so many people didn't see."I saw the punch,it couldn't have crushed a grape".I think the doubters will always prevail in Ali-Liston fight number two.How could have Liston shook off the mightiest bombs of Cleveland Williams,and fall to a glancing right hand by Ali?

 

I recall on Liston's ESPN SportsCentury episode a Boxing writer it might have been Jack Newfeld or Jerry Izenberg can't remember right now off the top of my head said they were speaking to Liston in Las Vegas and asked Liston if he indeed took a dive in the second Ali fight and Liston said something to the tune of "Yes, that guy was crazy and I wanted nothing to do with him" talking about Ali.

Again, I can't remmeber who the writer was but I will have to go back and see if I can find that clip. I thought it was interesting and I do not think someone would make up such a story.

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z3WB9FStwB0

 

I have watched both fights several times and it looks to me Liston was trying to win. In the second fight Ali was standing over him instead of going to a neutral corner, so the ref couldn't start the count. Then Nat Fleischer at ringside yelled that the fight was over. More like a comedy of errors than a fix.

http://www.amazon.com/Joe-Gans-Biography-American-Champion/dp/0786439947/ref=pd_bxgy_b_img_a

 

I read somewhere, it may have been in Hauser's bio of Ali, that Ali was puzzled by Liston going down in the rematch. Saying something to the effect that he just went down, and believing Liston not to be in that much trouble.

Larry Merchant has always commented on the way that an Ali uppercut makes Liston's head snap just before Ali's right puts Liston away. Merchant has stated he thinks the uppercut was the damaging blow.

I've often wondered if Liston was taking a dive, Ali didn't know about it, Ali's uppercut( the same from Merchant's theory) was a solid enough shot for Liston to think the time was appropriate, and Liston fell on the next thing to hit him. Then Liston acted dazed for a bit, and when the fight wasn't stopped; Liston went back to fighting and looking for another moment.

I've often discounted the large conspiracy theory, and went for the simple one. Liston, and maybe his people, were in on the fix. I think the Walcott time thing was an inexperienced referee being influenced by those at ringside. I remember Don King being captured on film rising the instant Buster Douglas was not counted out when felled by a Tyson uppercut. Had Tyson and Douglas happened in a similar setting to Ali vs Liston II, Douglas may have lost in the beginning of the 9th.

 

It's not only about power. Liston was off balance and didn't see the punch coming. A punch like that can always put you down, at least for a flash KD. The punch Holyfield knocked Tyson down with was hardly the hardest punch he's ever been hit with.

So Liston hitting the canvas isn't that big of a deal to me, it's how he looks on the canvas.

 

yeah jimmy cannon is a real expert on ali and boxing haha. what a joke! liston coming into the punch doubles the power for one. norton never came in he stayed on his back foot. ali hit him on the button - the jaw. man some people can't accept that ali had enough power to knock someone down if he hit you on the button with perfect timing. he did the same kinda punch to folley and some are now saying he dived. this gets funnier!

 

yes , you're right liston was coming onto the punch,
but....ali wasn't leaning into it,it was only an arm punch.

it was a dive,and a bad one at that

 

Yes, clearly. Anyone who thinks otherwise is obviously a dick whose only contribution to ESB is solely about Ali. :yep

 

thank you,good luck in the cup final by the way against the money-pockets.
hopefully,cups won this season everton 1 liverpool 0:good

 

This is typical. The people that believe in a JFK conspiracy are totally ignorantof the facts. Nobody ever claimed he was shot in the face.

 

Ali whoops on Liston, irrespective of the circumstances. His style was all wrong for him.

 

Yep, there's only one team on Merseyside capable of winning silverware this year.

Back to the 'dive'. Irrespective of whether there was a connection (there was) it nowhere near looked hard enough to knock a man like Liston. Holyfield-Douglas featured a punch that certainly looked more solid than that one, yet everyone felt Doulgas could have beaten the count.

 

But even us broken clocks get to be right two times a day. Let's say this is one of them.