Dempsey - A Harder Hitter Then Marciano?

Dempsey was the better overall puncher, but Marciano has the edge in one punch power. Marciano is one of the hardest punchers in the history of boxing, despite his size.

 

Gunboat Smith, a big hitter? Could you explain to me why this big hitter has a KO percentage of 31%, which is not even half of what light hitters like Holmes and Ali have? I realize that fights were not stopped as fast back then, but on the flip side, they did have smaller gloves. So that kind of compensates. Also, what is your evidence for Smith having loaded gloves?


I find it funny that all the Dempsey supporters can reach for are anecdotes of him breaking bones, killing 7'2 giants for fun, and doing that other stuff that mouth-to-mouth information legends did back then. But when it comes to physical evidence, i.e. film, all of a sudden he fails to score those one-punch knockouts.

Let's put the facts really simple:
-Marciano scored one punch knockouts against more defensively skilled opponents.
-Dempsey didn't score one punch knockouts.


And this is despite the fact that Dempsey was faster and usually put together longer combinations. I think it's pretty clear that punch-for-punch, Marciano hit harder.

 

Lou Stillman’s verdict

Gruff, strict and taciturn, the legendary and brilliant Lou Stillman ran his famous New York boxing gym with a rod of iron. Like Ray Arcel, Lou could be shy and guarded in giving his opinion of different fighters. One has to remember that such special men – along with the likes of Angelo Dundee, Manny Steward, Buddy McGirt and Teddy Atlas today – are constantly quizzed on which fighter they think was the best. They are so wary of getting into endless arguments on the subject. Many fans don’t react kindly when a trainer’s verdict doesn’t happen to dovetail with their own.
Stillman saw thousands of fighters over a great span of years: champions, contenders, preliminary boys, ordinary men just working out. But one day Stillman saw one thing he never forgot. It was the angry punch with which the retired Dempsey knocked out Tony Galento in a sparring session. The sight and sound of that mighty blow being driven home was hard for even Stillman to believe. Right to the end, Lou maintained that it was the hardest shot he had ever seen and that Dempsey was the greatest heavyweight.
Ray Arcel was also a witness to the chilling incident and recalled that the punch nearly decapitated Galento.

 

K0 percentages are notoriously misleading ,check out Ike Williams record


Evidence for Smith being a big puncher?
"They got a fellow out there[Colma],my god he'll knock a brick wall down!". Jack Johnson referring to Smith ,whom he had used as a sparring partner.

Evidence for Smith having his hands loaded against Willard?

" I of course had my gloves "loaded",I had insulation tape laid across my hands".Taped interview with Gunboat Smith 1970 at his home in Brooklyn New York.Interviewed by Pete Heller
[If you dont think this works try it ,I have, it makes your hand like a brick.]
No one said Dempsey killed anyone,I said he broke the jaw of a 7' 2in sparring partner.
Evidence of this?
The sparring partner was 7' 2in Big Ben Wray, Dempsey was training for Tommy Gibbons.Wray scaled over 250lbs`15,00 paying customers saw Dempsey shatter Wray's jaw in less than half a minute of sparring.
Still find it funny?
Source for Dempsey quotes Jack Dempsey by Randy Roberts .
Ok Mr Sarcastic?

 

I have heard that before. Slipped my mind completely.

 

This is my take on the matter.

To be fair to Dempsey he did break Bill Brennans ankle with a punch above the waist.

Dempsey had almost Shaversesque power when he threw a punch with his entire body and comited to it.

 

O Ya?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qKUlBPErrn0

After watching this fight, tell me with a straight face layne didnt have an iron chin...


Rocky knocked this dude out with ONE single right hand. Made laynes legs turn to jelly and sent laynes teeth flying into the stands in a tony tubbs esq delayed reaction knockout. Layne was 34-1(25) 22 years old rated # 6 in the world and had never been stopped.


The pre 1954 slugger version of Rocky Marciano was a harder one puncher hitter than dempsey. Dempsey usually needed no neutral corner rule and MANY knockdowns to stop his opponent, while marciano only needed to put his opponent down once or twice and that was it. Dempsey himself said he needed many knockdowns and punches to end a fight, where as marciano only needed one punch to end things. dempsey said marciano was the harder hitter with one punch. I do believe dempsey hit harder than the swarmer 54-55 version of marciano.



Honestly Russell, I think you bringing up a old very inactive overweight punching bag jess willard(whom dempsey hit with everything but the kitchen sink and STILL couldnt put him away) and a dying diseased Billy Miske as evidence to support your theory of dempsey being the harder hitter, is very poor evidence. If I were building up a case for Dempsey, I would bring up his knockouts of Brennan, Fulton, Sharkey instead.

 

Agreed

 

Check out my post on Miske in the Bravest fighter thread .
ps I have actually said before I favour Marciano on this subject , but I like to put the record straight ,especially when Chris Pontius is getting into his" I hate Dempsey" mode.
I think Marciano's destruction of Layne is terrifyingly impressive ,it ruined the slugger from Utah.

 

If rocky was an attrition based slugger, then how come he had more one punch knockouts than jack dempsey did?

I thought we were talking about the pre 1954 slugger version of marciano??? I already said dempsey hit harder than this version, but not the version who fought Matthews, Walcott, Layne, and Louis

 

Williams was a lightweight, who always score a lot fewer knockouts than heavyweights. I know that these statistics can be misleading, but come on, 30% ?! That's **** poor for a "big hitter" and you know it.

And you can find these kind of quotes about anyone. It doesn't prove ****.
Again, just like Dempsey's power, you are referring to things other than facts.

Well that really disappoints me. What a piece of ****ing ****, now i'm glad Johnson didn't give him a titleshot, though on the other hand, he'd receive a well deserved beating anyway.

Excuse the sarcasm, but you still haven't come up with a one-punch knockout, and the reason is really simple: because he never produced any. Ben Bray was mediocre. Being 7'2 doesn't mean anything if you can't box for ****.

 

This fight gets undersold a bit. Too many people forget how impressive of a win this was for marciano. Marciano was a big underdog in this fight. I thouight dempseys best kayo on film would be Jack Sharkey, except what ruins it for me is he hits sharkey in the balls twice right before landing the left hook. His next impressive kayo on film was bill brennan, dempsey showed great late power there. Even though he beats the **** out of Willard and Firpo, I was unimpressed with the way despite him not having to go to a neutral corner, it still takes him hundreds of punch after punch standing over them and 16 knockdowns a piece before finally putting them away. I dont think the Rock needs more than 2 knockdowns in a row to end a fight and that is with the neutral corner.

 

Find one time in this thread where I brought the lastarza fight up as a testament to Marcianos power. I DID NOT. why? because marciano broke lastarza down.


The fights I brought up that showed Marciano hit harder with one punch than dempsey were the Walcott, Layne, Matthews, and Louis fights. Dempsey did not produce one punch knockouts on film. Marciano produced multiple one punch knockouts on film. Now once again, checkout the Layne vs Satterfield footage and tell me Layne didnt have an iron chin?

 

it means he was less mobile and usually lethargic, meaning he was basically a sitting punching bag asking to be hit cleanly. Anyone can knock that kind of fighter out. Besides Russell, when a mans in shape, hes not only tougher to hit cleanly, but he is stronger mentally too willing to fight extra hard. did Dempsey actually knock Willard out? He knocked Willard down 7 times with NO NEUTRAL CORNER RULE, and STILL could not put willard away. Willard was still up on his feet fighting by the 3rd. Once rocky put a man down, he usually finished them.