Who's the Smallest-Ever Fighter You'd Pick to Beat Current Wlad 6+ Times Outta 10?

It's just funny how OVERRATED Wlad gets because he has a jab, some height, and some power.

 

Everyone has an opinion but wow that statement about Frazier is way off to me ...

 

I would just like to say I do think Dempsey and Marciano both knockout Wladimir. But Wlad does worry me because in his prime he had seriousely punching abilities with either hand, stiff jab, and very good boxing skills, and he has shown much more heart in the ring than his brother Vitali.

 

Wouldn't you say Dempsey does better than Marciano, given his more explosive and aggressive style, as well as having three inches less of height difference to overcome?

 

I do think Rocky would win, but i wonder how difficult it would be for him to land on wlads chin cleanly given his short reach.

 

Why do you think the young Foreman only visited the canvas against three boxers, all of them world class, while Wlad has visited the canvas more than any heavyweight champion since Floyd Patterson? It's also notable that Wlad was knocked down by the likes of Steve Pannell, Ross Purritty and Davaryll Williamson. Foreman was never hurt against that level of opposition.

This is all despite the fact that Wlad has always had a much better defence than Foreman.

Furthermore, two of Foreman's knockdowns (Ali and Young) were primarily due to exhaustion; neither Ali or Young came close to hurting Foreman until his bad stamina caught up with him. On the other hand, Wlad has often been knocked down without being tired: against Peter, Pannell, TOS and Sanders were all in the early stages. Only Ron Lyle, who was a formidable puncher AND who Foreman was fighting after a very long layoff (Foreman is covered in ring-rust in that fight) was able to hurt Foreman primarily through punches rather than Foreman being exhausted.

Can you seriously imagine Wlad going punch-for-punch with a puncher like Ron Lyle and being the last man standing? If, for instance, Wlad had slugged it out with Sam Peter (who is comparable in power and chin with Ron Lyle, though not in skill) would he have won? I personally doubt it, since Peter had him down with glancing blows.

So we have one boxer who was only sparked by punches by one boxer (13 months after his last pro contest, with only an unimpressive farce in the interim) in a fight were he took a hellacious beating and yet still won. This same boxer went on, without any chin transplants, to show an outrageous iron chin in his second career while a fat blob in his 40s.

On the other hand, we have a boxer who was hurt enough to go down from relatively mild punishment from Steve Pannell (the only notable boxer ever to be hurt by "Storm"), TOS, Corrie Sanders and Sam Peter (who is an overrated puncher) and who has never taken the kind of beatings that Foreman took.

I think the difference in durability is clearly very great.

Firstly, I think it's less about the amount of damage that Foreman took and more about the amount of damage he was prepared to take. Foreman had to put himself in the firing line against Frazier to win, and that meant being prepared to take clean shots on the chin from a man who knocked down Ali, Quarry and a host of other durable boxers. Wlad simply lacked the psychology to slug it out in such a fashion.

It's not reasonable to have hypotheticals where boxers have different psychologies. For example, Chris Eubank was like a car that had a 1rst gear and a 5th gear, but nothing in between; he was either throwing huge punches or prancing about the ring like a supermodel. If Chris Eubank had the ability to be totally focused and fight at a measured pace, he'd be nearly unbeatable. If Wladimir Klitschko had the mindset to go punch-for-punch with someone like Frazier, I might give him a chance of repeating the Sunshine Showdown.

To beat Frazier in the way Foreman did, you have to be the kind of man who (a) goes to box in the Olympics aged 19 with almost no amateur experience; (b) fight Joe Frazier, Ken Norton and Muhammad Ali within four fights; (c) fight Ron Lyle after a 13 month layoff; (d) having nearly died after your last boxing fight, decide to go back into the ring aged 38, go on to fight boxers like Michael Moorer and Evander Holyfield; (e) fight on until 48, including against Shannon Briggs, who even then was known as a puncher.

In short, you have to be as crazy as Foreman. Wlad is not that crazy.

Secondly, here's a list of some of the left hooks Frazier landed on Foreman: -a leaping left hook to the temple in the opening seconds

-a short clean left hook to the chin that snapped Foreman's head 30 seconds in

- another leaping left to the top of the head a few seconds later that led Don Dumphy (who could hear the punches) to say "Foreman has been nailed and nailed good" (he should have said "nailed well", but grammar was not Don's strongpoint)

- a big left hook that Frazier got his entire bodyweight behind at 0:38

- a "solid left hook" in Don's words at 1:09

Foreman needed to walk through all of that (and did so with ease) just to get his FIRST KNOCKDOWN! Wlad has never taken that many punches from a world class puncher in such a short time, without going down.

- Frazier landed another clean left hook at 2:36, but it was mostly an arm punch

- Having thrown all that leather (in a display of continual aggression that I can't remember Wlad ever showing) Foreman then took another clean leaping left hook from a recovered Frazier at the start of round 2

- Frazier landed another clean left hook with his bodyweight behind it

- Foreman then threw a combination with no regard at all for the left hook coming back from Frazier prior to the fourth knockdown

It's implausible to think that Wlad could do something like that without at the very least getting knocked down himself.

Foreman also needed to be durable in their second find, where Frazier landed some horrific punches.

While it's true that Wlad has a better defence that Foreman, he only had a good defence when he's fighting cautiously. When Wlad gets aggressive, as we've seen so often, he's pretty easy to catch. Certainly, lesser boxers than Frazier had no problem finding his chin when Wlad fought aggressively.

Foreman was very strong, but he wasn't as strong as Ali, and Ali's wrestling only took him so far against Frazier. In fact, Ali's holding was only effective when he had a referee (Tony Perez) who broke the fighters apart every time that Ali looked at him and let Ali hold in a highly illegal fashion.

Strength was a factor in Foreman's win, but a much bigger factor was the ability to throw everything he had without any regard for the punches coming the other way.

I think the Bonavena fight is a good indicator of how hard it was to get Frazier out of there. Even if you had him totally out of it, Frazier was very good at coming back to win. Foreman pulled it off, but Foreman was exceptional and not comparable with Wlad in terms of slugging.

Having thought about the fantasy match-up a bit, if I was Wlad's trainer, I'd actually have him looking at the Thrilla in Manilla rather than the Sunshine Showdown. Ali had a lot of success with the straight lead right hand and with careful, clever movement. If Wlad would throw lead right hands, then follow up with left hooks, he could find some real opportunities to win.

 

I think the contention that Bob Fitzsimmons would take out Wlad pretty much sealed up that contest.

 

You might take that logic further and say that Sam Langford would be more dangerous for the same reason.

 

1) Those 3 guys earned a whopping 1 title shot between them. They were fringe contender level fighters when Liston fought them. Cleveland Williams defeated 1, maybe 2 top 10 fighters his entire career...if that. The Valdez Sonny beat may not have been worse than the Hasim Rahman Wlad just beat, but I wouldn't want to argue he was any better, either. They also all measured at 6'3 or a shade less...hardly WELL above.

2) Louis was also the exception to the rule. Rocky fought 4 fighters who weighed over 210 lbs.

As a little food for thought, Wlad's fought only one oppnent smaller than 210 lbs. In fact, only 10 fighters he's ever fought weighed less than 220. His record? 10-0, 7 KO's.

Size isn't everything, but when the average size of one guys competition is 2-4 inches taller and 20-30+ lbs bigger than the others, it'd be pretty biased to not take that into account at all when comparing competition. If Wlad fought Cruiserweights for 80% of his career, he'd be looking like superman. He's consistently knocking out and beating fighters significantly larger than that.


There are smaller fighters out there who could beat him..but it looks like people are truly underrating how tough of a proposition that would actually be. Guys like Tyson and Dempsey, who had speed, precision, and carried alot of punching power on the inside, would be my best bets for it. The "grinders" like Marciano and Frazier, I wouldn't like their chances. They take too much punishment to execute their own gameplans.

 

I did not know about the Panell knockdown. Fortunately, the fight is on YouTube. I am fairly convinced by your case (though i already admitted Foreman to be more durable), but i would like to make a few comments here and there:

This is true, but it's also true that Foreman's knockdowns/out came against much less heavier hitting opponents. Young couldn't break an egg and Ali wasn't the hardest puncher, either. Williamson, Purrity and Pannel were all 6'3+, 230+lbs hard hitting men with a focus on strength and power.

Good point.

Well, we were discussing durability, not "chin", so the exhaustion-reasons are not really relevant. Wlad's knockdowns/outs against Purrity and Brewster were also exhaustion-related more than anything else. Sanders did lambast him, though.


I don't really think much of the ring-rust argument, however. He was out of the ring for little more than a year, and while the 5-washed-up-former-contenders circus act was laughable, he was in the ring, throwing punches (and asking for a stoppage). To me, the barrage that Foreman came back with in the 5th after nearly being stopped, is one of the most impressive feats of his first career, and certainly not something that a rusty boxer would be capable of doing.

I doubt Wlad could win that way. Perhaps the Wlad of 2001, who was offensively one of the best ever (only lacking an uppercut), but i would still put my money on Peter.

It is a bit of a weird scenario to imagine, though. It's not like Foreman did his best to get tagged. He used whatever limited form of defence he was familiar with. What will Wlad have to do to get tagged? But i see and concede your point, though i wouldn't rule out a Wlad victory and let's be honest: Foreman was a **** hair away from defeat using that strategy.

I think the difference in durability is clear, but not clearly great.

The reason i'm saying this is the following: Young and Byrd are comparable punchers, yet Byrd never had Wlad in trouble, let alone down and hurt. It wasn't a flash knockdown that Foreman suffered. I know that it was more related to exhaustion, but that's just part of one's durability. Ali stunned Foreman several times before he knocked the man out. The only real puncher who landed on Foreman nearly had him out (Lyle).

And then there is the fact that Wlad fights in a steroid-inflated era with 12 rounds instead of 15 with a very large emphasis on strength and power. These are factors to consider. Foreman's average opponent was significantly smaller and i bet if you added up the KO percentages, you'd be looking at quite a difference too, even if you threw out all the cab drivers.

These factors make me believe that while Foreman has one up on him, there is not a lightyear of distance between them in this regard.

I may become repetitive at this point, but i have to re-state that Foreman was hardly slugging it out with Frazier, since he outlanded his opponent by 5:1 if not more! You'd be crazy not to get in there and continue your succesful work, and i think even Wlad would. He did the same with Brewster.

Now you're exxagarating. Frazier was a slow starter, a midget compared to Foreman (even moreso compared to Wlad) and when a boxer can land a shipload of punches without much in return, he will. Wlad or not.

Good shots, but like you said yourself: Wlad's defence is a lot better so he'll probably block or evade half those shots. Second, Frazier is not a one-punch KO type of guy but instead needs to wear his opponents down. I don't think it's inconceivable that Wlad takes these punches from a slow-starting, out of shape Frazier. Whether he continues his assault with the same conviction i don't know, but suffice it to say, that he can potshot Frazier easier and safer than Foreman can.

 

I'm not sure how true this is. He fought very aggressive during all of his 44 first pro bouts and none of his losses during that period seemed to have come from the direct results of being too aggressive. In two cases he ran out of steam, which is a consequence of over-aggression, but not in the context of a counter punch or leaving himself open, as we are discussing now. The other case, Sanders, found Wlad's chin because of a technical flaw, not because of over-aggressiveness. In fact, the two minutes of the bout where no knockdowns occur, are rather dull.

Which lesser boxers than Frazier had no problem finding Wlad's chin when he fought aggressively?

I think it's worth noting that while Wlad's worst stamina-showings are certainly worse than Foreman's showings, but Wlad's best showings are also a lot better than Foreman's highest when it comes to stamina. That sentence was horrible, but let me explain.

Wlad's exhaustion loss to Brewster came 3 rounds earlier than Foreman's to Ali. And Purrity stopped him in the 10th, while Foreman, barely, went the distance with Young.

However, what redeeming performances does Foreman have, stamina-wise? He went 10 with Peralta, a former LHW, and that's probably the only thing he has going for him. I'm still talking about a prime Foreman; the comebacking Foreman was a completely different fighter who conserved his energy, had better balance, technique, etc.

Now, Wlad, does have several "redeeming" performances. He threw 72 punches a round for 6 rounds against Brewster in the rematch without showing any sign of fatigue, and while staying light on his feet. Against mercer he threw 60 punches a round, many of which were hard, power shots, and showed no signs of tiredness. He knocked out Thompson, who had never been down or even hurt, with a single punch in the 11th round of their fight. Knocked down Byrd and nearly stopped him in the 12th round. Handed Jameel McCline the first knockdown of his career before he was shot and got blasted by Arreola at age 37. This happened at the end of the 9th round. Was the first to hurt an in-shape Sam Peter in the 12th round after being on his toes for the entire fight without tiring.


I could go on, but you get the point. He has several late stoppages and proven stamina, whereas Foreman doesn't.

The thing is that early in his career he did a lot of weight lifting and never sparred more than 4 rounds, courtesy of Fritz Sdunek. When Steward became his full time trainer since early 2005, he has never shown significant stamina problems and has more of a boxers physique, with plenty of rounds of sparring. Probably the same regime Lennox Lewis had.


On top of that, as i pointed out before, Wlad's opponents were stronger and more powerful as a bunch. Purrity has a cast iron jaw and kept pressing him the entire time. That's something else than tiring against a feather fisted mover like Young.

And the fact that he could land so easily on Frazier, as did every other top opponent.

On Ali, every referee let him get away with the illegal manner of his holding. Just like every referee is letting Wlad get away with his holding (thusfar).

Fair enough.

You deserve a medal if you went through all my comments.