RJJ or JCC higher ATG

Jones by far, if you can't see that by watching them you need glasses.

 

Jones in my opinion accomplished the bigger feat in winning titles at a pure weight disadvantage, whereas Chavez always fought around his true weight. Would be like Chavez moving up to middleweight and winning titles.

 

As you can see from the previous page, I also believe the answer is Jones.

However, I would take issue with your reasoning here. Merely watching someone can never be the be all and end all.

Based purely on video evidence if you watch Herol Graham or Sumbu Kalambay, you very well may think they are greater boxers than Emile Griffith or Carlos Monzon, and of course we all know they are not.

There is more to consider than that.

 

or Meldrick Tatlor could have been seriously injured and maybe not around today

 

Roy may have been a better technician, & was way faster. But you have to consider the whole package. Chavez was never even floored until he fought Randall. (around 100 fights). Jones was knocked out cold, while still pretty much in his prime. Which like Lewis is a hard handicap to overcome in any comparison. or ATG debate.

 

No, he was KO'd twice when he was declining but not yet shot. He was still the top P4P fighter in the world the first time he was KO'd. He was at no worse a stage in his career as Chavez when he lost to Whitaker and Randall.

 

Chavez Easy ...

RJJ is way overated by the americans

 

Look at Jones's performances in '02 and '03. Look at his performances from the first Tarver fight onwards. It was a completely different man. I was always sceptical about hearing that someone could age overnight, till I actually saw it. It may have been the extreme bulk-up and burn-off of weight, it may simply have been an unquantifiable rapid natural decline in physical ability, but the Jones who fought Tarver the first time was NOT the same guy as a year earlier. I have his career set, and the difference was incredible. Sorry, but Roy was shot in '04, as shot as shot can be. Could Tarver have sparked a merely past-prime Roy? Could Johnson have dominated him? Absolutely no way. They were fighting a corpse. His decline was bizarre - rapid, inexplicable and (as we saw v Calzaghe) irreversible.

 

Yes, Roy was p4p#1 when he fought Tarver first time, yes before that fight he was viewed as still being in his prime, but if you disregard his placing in the fictional rankings of a magazine and disregard the numerical fact of his age and actually watch his fights, it is achingly obvious that he was NOT close to prime when he was stopped twice. The evidence is there in the fights.

Some fighters decline very gradually (like Duran, who was still capable of going to war with larger men 15-20 years after he first won a world title), but there are also fighters whose decline is very sharp and without warning, like Jones.

 

With one fight, Chavez quite frankly, usurped anything Jones did. The first Taylor fight turned a fringe all-time top ten Mexican fighter into the greatest Mexican fighter ever and the number one ranked fighter in the world at the time.

Taylor was very much the real deal, and many of us allegedly in the know put good money on Meldrick (which explains the real reason Steele was booed) .

Jones fights never had the drama and atmosphere of a Chavez bout; I never saw RJJ sell out a 127,000 stadium; I never saw Jones turn around fights he was losing; I never saw Jones fight everyone he could in his prime.....

RJJ was a fantastic athlete, a brilliant boxer, but to be great you need so much more, Chavez had these other facets, Jones did to a point, but not at the level of Julio Cesar Chavez.

 

Chavez was getting shalacked by Taylor, hardly a dominating win. If Jones was Mexican you dont think he could fill Azteca at the prime of his career? Cmon now sir.

 

Jones lacked the ability to communicate with the fans that Chavez did. If he was Mexican I think he would of been highly respected as a brilliant boxer, but would of been too aloof from the Mexican fans, for there to be genuine affection, ala Chavez.

It is a bit of a myth that Chavez was getting a shellacking from Taylor. The fight was close, Taylor was badly injured going into the final round, and at best was going to win a split decision....

As for the lack of domination, that is what sells Chavez greatness. JCC was arguably three years and 10lbs of his peak form, yet he still beat one of the finest fighters out there.

Chavez is similar to Ali, in that early on they were seemingly unbeatable, but when they had slipped they still could find ways to win fights, when everything was not going their way, that is one of things RJJ lacks.

 

Ok what about the Whitaker fight? And how about the two Randall fights, second one Randall was clearly robbed? Chavez like so many forward fighters was susceptible to be outboxed. His win over Hector Camacho, stands as one of his best performances in my opinion, against a pretty slick guy.

 

Chavez was coming to the end of his journey by 93/94, the Whitaker fight was hardly a surprise, and Randall was a classy fighter at his best, and indeed caused Chavez all sorts of problems.

Kudos to Camacho, who for perhaps the only time in his career lived up to his nickname and took his beating like a (Macho) Man.

 

You mean the THREE Randall fights, & two Taylor fights??? Both fighters were given the opportunity to redeem themselves & were defeated yet again.