If we switch Dempsey and Marciano, does anything interesting pop up?

And i can't see Dempsey getting knocked down 8 times by a journeyman middleweight. But it happened anyway. This was a young Dempsey who only fought soft touches and faced an experienced vet in Flynn. In boxing, anything's possible. Can you imagine a journeyman with several knockout losses and a low KO% not only knock out, but dominate nearly every round against a prime Mike Tyson? Well, it happened. Can you imagine Larry Holmes, one of the more durable heavyweights, getting knocked down and nearly stopped by a guy with a 46% knockout ratio, who never knocked out any rated contender or even a fringe contender? Boxing rarely follows logic and because of that, you cannot rule out an event simply because the numbers don't add up.

 

Dempsey was very young for the suddenberg fight. it was hardly a prime dempsey. He was young, had no amateur background, and was not much bigger then a middleweight himself, not to mention the no neutral corner rule. I dont see how it can be used to question his ability.

 

Context. You need it.

 

What should be used is the fact that under trained, fighting inconsistently, always on the road with next to no real training he always fought his heart out, gave excellent accounts of himself and never quit ... those were still near wild west days and Dempsey was tough as nails .. they all were ... this is a huge part of the Dempsey legend and there is a reason why it has struck so many hearts ...

Marciano had a far more conventional career launch with regular training, carefully selected opponents, ect ...

 

Partially. Remember, up until Rockys 10 pro fight, Al Weill and Charlie Goldman had nothing to do with Rocky. They wanted Rocky to prove himself first. Therefore, Rocky with no regular training early on his pro career got sent into the ring overmatched vs 8-0 and 15-0 opponents in his 2nd and 3rd pro fights, yet he passed the stern tests and came away with the W.

While at times Weill did get very careful in selecting Marcianos opponents(Particuraly in 1952)....Weill did manage to send Marciano in the ring vs the absolute best of his era, and they NEVER drew the color line. Dempsey on the otherhand, avoided the best of his era Wills and Greb, and drew the color line. Therefore, Marciano is much more proven here, and Dempsey deserves the criticism for "Carefully selected opponents".



FYI You said you think Dempsey has the better ability as a fighter. I respectfully disagree. I dont buy into that whole monte cox "whatever marciano could do, jack could do better" bullcrap. I believe they each had there own unique styles with there own strengths, I feel marcianos style was more effective. I also feel Marciano had the edge in one punch power and durability which are big traits.

 

Even if you do, Certainly not the 1919 37 year old fat out of shape 3 years inactive Willard? Therfore this arguement is irrelevant in this thread.

Marciano DID have explosive power. I dont know where you get this from. The pre 1954 Slugger Version of Marciano was a early-mid Round one punch knockout artist. As for Hand and Footspeed. Marciano's handspeed was certainly faster than Willards, and when Marciano had a man hurt he threw high volumes of power punches till the man dropped so I don't see how Willard(Especially the 1919 version) will be able to escape Marcianos assault. Footspeed is a non issue. Willard was stationary target, he will be there to be hit. Marciano did not need to move to hit him. History shows us 200lb + men that stood right in front of Marciano got knocked out( Marciano is 11-0 with 11 knockouts against men over 200lb). Also I would like to add while marciano did not have the footwork of dempsey, marciano showed he could cut off the ring vs fast master boxers just as well as Jack did if not better.


Lastly, I would like to make a point how it took Dempsey hundreds of flush punches to put willard down 7 times and he STILL COULDNT put jess away. Jess was still fighting back by round 3. Even without the neutral corner rule, jack could not knockout willard. He battered him nearly to death, yes. But I feel give rock no neutral corner and Rocky would not need many knockowns and multiple punches to get rid of willard. Once rock puts willard down, willard will stay there.

 

Old Fogey, you bring up a great point about Defense against Jabs. Your right when you say Tunney, Sharkey, Brennan were all able to keep Jack Dempsey at the end of a jab and control him....while Marciano faced some great jabbers(Louis, Walcott, Moore, even Layne) and none of them could control him with a left jab.

 

Yeah that REALLY disappointed me of Mr. Cox. You'd think a boxing historian wouldn't make such an ignorant statement that throws any realization of styles out of the window by simply saying that Dempsey did everything better than Rocky.

Not to mention that even in a very simplified check of categories, without taking styles into account, it's simply not true. Marciano was knocked down less often against better opposition. Marciano has more one-punch KO's and more knockouts against better opposition. Marciano was more willing to fight the top guys out there. Marciano has better stamina on film. Marciano was never dominated as much as Dempsey was. Dempsey was faster. Dempsey threw better combinations. Dempsey had better footwork but by a small margin.

Marciano takes the most important categories by a clear edge, in my opinion.

 

Agreed. I feel Punching Power, Strength, and Durability all go to Marciano slightly. These are 3 big categories. Overall Defense is actually alot closer than it appears to Dempsey fans. While Dempsey had a big edge over Maricano when it comes to speed, I do think Dempsey had some more glaring weaknesses than Marciano, which is why Dempsey lost, got dominated, or had some huge struggles in his prime years more so than Rocky.


* On the combination punching...I thought Rocky put together some fabulous combinations against Walcott in there classic fight. Rockys combinations was quite good at times, but he was also great at throwing one punch after another. Combine his combination punching with his one punch after another finishing style, plus his one punch raw KO power....it make rocky quite the versatile puncher. Especially when he was delivering these punches out his crouch and rotating his torso around before throwing left hooks...

 

Most of the experts that saw both Dempsey and Marciano say different. Most went with Dempsey.

As far as Rocky fighting the best right from the start goes. Rocky fought his 1st top 10 contender in his 26th bout when he won a close split decision against LaStarza. He fought another 10 bouts before he fought another top 10 contender when he stopped Rex Layne. When he fought Moore that was only the 11th time Rocky ever fought a boxer that was rated in the top 10 when he fought them.

 

And of everyone here who has seen both, the opinions are much more split.

People always have a tendency to rate those they saw in their youth higher.

 

When would Dempsey have fought his first top ten guy if they had ratings? And how many fighters would have been rated in the top ten at the time he fought them?

I would estimate that Dempsey's totals would not have been much higher. The fact is that Marciano's 11 victories over top ten opponents is better than Schmeling, Frazier, Johansson, Foreman, or Norton did, according to the Boxing Register. By the way, if you moved the bar up to top five, Marciano would still have won about ten fights against top five opponents. I doubt if Dempsey could match that.

Marciano going until his 26th fight to fight a man who was world rated when he fought him doesn't seem so bad to me, at least not if we're comparing him to Dempsey. Marciano actually fought a man who had been top ten the previous year, Phil Muscato, in his 24th fight. Jack Dempsey went to his 24th fight (against Joe Bonds) before he fought a man who is listed as having even won more than half of his total fights.

 

The most failsafe way to throw a fight is to go down in the first minute of the first round.

Take it outside that envelope and the risk of not delivering what you have to increases exponentialy.

It is what Sonny Liston did and it is probably what Dempsey did.

 

"The most failsafe way to throw a fight"

If the men betting on you are armed and dangerous? I think I would try to hang in there and take a few bruises to make it look good, myself.