You think a 230lbs man in an era where strength is a major factor, is going to be physically weaker than a 190lbs boxer who trains for 15 round stamina?
1. No matter how you spin it, Moore never fought Charles at heavyweight. Charles was the better fighter at lightheavyweight. I don't understand what Charles has exactly to do with Moore as a heavyweight. 2. How many of these heavyweights Moore defeated were ranked in the yearly top five by Ring Magazine at one time or another--Lovell, Walker, Sheppard, Bivins, Henry, Baker, Valdes, Lavorante. How many were ranked when he fought them. I think all but Lovell and Walker. 3. How many ranked fighters over 210 lbs did Moore defeat?--Valdes, Baker, Parker, and Lavorante. That is four. How many has Chagaev beaten? But anyway, weight isn't what I would go by. Why give a man extra credit for beating men who are out of shape. Chagaev is 6' 1". I would ask how many men taller than 6' 1" did Moore defeat. The answer would be quite a few--without looking it up Cestac, Davidson, Valdes, Baker, Parker, Lavorante, Bean, etc. 4. "Moore did not give up a lot of weight"--are you kidding? Look at the weights. He pretty consistently gave up 15 to 30 pounds or more to the big heavyweights. He just beat them anyway. 5. Moore might indeed have had trouble with Walcott. I didn't consider him because he was not an active fighter after 1953. But Moore was in fact a paper heavyweight champion (in Nevada) the same as Valuev and Ruiz, and was generally recognized as the second best heavyweight in the world next to Marciano. 6. On Bivins--Bivins was elected to the Hall of Fame. He had something like 75 fights against men who were ranked at one time or another. He beat five Hall of Famers (Charles, Moore, Burley, Yarosz, Maxim) eight champions (Charles, Moore, Yarosz, Maxim, Christoforidis, Soose, Bettina, Lesnevich) and over fifty ranked opponents. He was stopped five times, and three of those were by Moore. Some might consider these victories somewhat more impressive than you do. 7. I don't know what you mean by never beating "elite" heavyweights. Moore certainly beat his share of top five men. He did not beat a champion, but he never got an easy target either, a green coming champ or a champ way over the hill or just a mediocre champion. He lost to Charles at lightheavyweight when Charles might have been the greatest lightheavy the ring has seen. He was 45 when he lost to Ali. He failed against Marciano and Patterson. Fair enough, and it costs him in the all time rankings. If he had beaten Marciano and Patterson, he would probably be a top 15 all time heavy, rather than down about the 29th position.
Skelton was 41 years old when Chagaev decisioned him,he weighed 254 1/2 lbs , he fought Rogan a year later and scaled 247 1/2 he was in better shape against Rogan slimmer and fitter.
I like Ruslan Chagaev, but I think his competition has ranged from basically mediocre to fair, and so have his perforances in those fights. Yes, he was the first to dent the giant Valuev's perfect record, but in all honesty the outcome was no more decisive than the efforts of John Ruiz or a 46 year old Holyfield against the same Valuev... The Drummond fight told us nothing... Matt Skelton and Wladimir Virchis are not world beaters.. John Ruiz was pushing 35, and hadn't beaten a serious opponent in years.. The vast majority of these wins also resulted in very close split or majority decisions... I hope Chagaev brings his "A" game against Klitschko ( assuming he has one ), and gives us a good show... At the moment however, I can't give him much of a chance.. Also, for anyone to claim that Chagaev is a top 50 all time heavyweight is extremely premature at this point. While being undefeated in 26 fights and holding a world title looks spectacular on paper, he really has no signature wins or performances to speak of.. If he were to produce a dominant performance over a true world beater, then we might be able to make a case for him....
I've seen 160 lb kids bench press 300 lbs before....so I don't swee how this is unconceivable as Chagaev does not look like a great athlete.
Who's to say Valuev was any worse against Oldyfield, as it is Evander was 46 himself and isnt near world class anymore, hasnt been this millenium. If your saying Valuev has been declining then an old Ruiz deserving the decision over Valuev trumps Chagaev then? Your ignoring the fact Williams beat a better Skeleton more emphatically than Chagaev. Chagaev was unimpressive against Skeleton who wasnt far off beating him, a very average Rogan out did Chagaev not long after These wins arent bad, there just not impressive
Really, the eye test means nothing. And obviously Chagaev is a tremendous athlete in order to rack up all those amateur medals and pro wins. This just doesn't happen by accident. I have a funny feeling he could make Saturday interesting. At his best, he picks his punches well and is not imtimidated, even against hulking giants.
Well this" hulking giant" , is a little different to the agromeliac Valuev, this guy can hit.I see a comfortable win for Wlad.
You count wrong mendoza. Archie Moore beat FOUR ring magazine top 10 heavyweight contenders above 210lb....Bob Baker, Alejandro Lavorante, Nino Valdez, and James J Parker. Baker, Valdez, and Lavorante were ALL rated in the top 5. Marciano, Louis, Layne, Lastarza, Valdez, Baker, Henry, Charles, Walcott, Moore, Liston, Patterson, Johansson, Machen, Folley, Williams, Dejohn, Summerlin, Satterfield, Walls, Matthews, Jackson, Neuhas....Thats quality depth. Care to explain why its not?
At his best, I would disagree. This content is protected This content is protected This content is protected
Clarence Henry was rated # 3 by Ring Magazine and is in the World Boxing Hall of Fame. Bob Baker was rated # 2 by Ring Magazine when Moore beat him. Are you saying Bob Baker and Clarence Henry arnt top wins? I have seen clarence henry vs bob baker I on film, both are the goods. Actually Moore consistently gave up 15-30lb in weight and 3-6" in height...Archie fought heavyweights above 200lb TWENTY FIVE times in his career
I thought he had just about the perfect build for a heavyweight of his times myself:huh. He trained with Joe Hess a Karate Champ , Hess stated he was as strong as any man he had met.
Yeah, any argument that Muhammad Ali was not a great athlete strikes me as beyond strange. I remember Vince Lombardi commenting that Ali was the best looking natural athlete he had ever seen and that he wished he could have gotten a chance to mold him into a linebacker.
Yeah, but how is your speculation of Chagaev's strength differ from my general statement regarding strength? It's both speculation. The only thing that's clear is what can be observed in the ring, and so far Chagaev has been less than impressive. Like another poster stated, he could pass as solid.