Joe Frazier vs Sonny Liston

Liston TKO3.

 

Yes he was, he did everything at least a step faster than Liston. He could bounce better and farther on his toes, his jab was quicker and snappier, and he could get off with combinations more frequently and fluidly. He was able to chase down and cut off the ring against a still very speedy Ali, whereas Liston had been made to look slow by movers even before Ali entered the picture.

Here they are side by side:
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No, Foreman was just quick enough to dodge a lot of Frazier's attacks as well.

No, Liston was hit at least as regularly (if not moreso) as Foreman throughout his career, and was not as naturally talented as Foreman.

Doesn't change the fact that Liston was an unabashed quitter. There's no excuse for that. He threw away his title in one fight, not even halfway through and the fight dead even; and made no effort to regain it (or seek revenge against the man who beat him) in another.

No it doesn't, because the only two fighters who ever beat Frazier were renowned for their toughness and heart.

 

Liston told Reddish "I just can't go back."

 

frazier gets through some early shaky moments to win a hard fought fight.

 

You're kidding, right? Frazier was blind and had the living **** beaten out of him in the last two rounds, with literally no resistance other than the odd left hook hitting only air because he couldn't see. Combined with the intense heat, pace, and the punishment he already took, he would've risked dying.

As far fetched as it was, Liston still had a chance to land a big left hook hook or something, and had 8 rounds to do so. Or apply the blinding substance again?

Now i don't see Liston beating Ali, but only a sadist would send Frazier out for the 15th, and only a fool would NOT send Liston out for the 7th.

 

If Frazier could take this into the later rounds I think his chances would increase dramatically, but I dont think he would manage it.
Frazier was a slow starter usually, I think they collide in mid ring and Liston lands enough to cause a stoppage aound the 3rd round .
Frazier is stylistically at a big disadvantage here,imo,not only has he to slip that pole of a jab, he has to weather punches from a terrific two handed hitter .
A younger Liston was adept inside and had a very complete arsenal,hooks crosses and uppercuts ,and all of them heavy.
Sonny's achilles heel was his footwork ,it was slow,and he never learned to cut off the ring [,something Foreman was excellent at], but that would not be a factor here,Frazier only knew one way to fight come in and engage, he would be right there in the firing line, and the only real monster puncher he met nearly decapitated him.
An early night with Joe beaten is my prediction.

 

Totally disagree. Me and you dont see eye to eye on boxing.

This could not be further from the truth. Foreman was much more off balance than liston both on his toes and the way he threw punches. Listons jab was much more accurate, Quicker, and more powerful. Liston controlled fights alone with his jab, foreman was not capable of doing that. Liston also used it as a range finder, and defensive mechanism. Foreman did not throw combinations....he threw slow telegprahed wide loops with no technique....Liston on the otherhand threw faster straighter more accurate combinations. Not to mention Liston never had a sever flaw like foreman had(Stamina)

not really. in fact foreman just stuck his head out there with no defense at all, and even took a couple big frazier left hooks. Liston on the otherhand had much better head movement and blocking techniques than foreman.

Totally disagree. Liston shows far better defense on film both in upperbody movement, blocking skills, and slipping jabs. Foreman was easy to tag.....and foreman also proved he could not beat a top rated slick defensive fighter in his prime....Both young and Ali whupped him. Liston proved he could go 12 hard paced rounds vs a top rated defensive boxer eddie machen and win on points. Foreman never showed us he could win a fight to the distance because he was so much more one dimensional than liston. Liston is far more versatile. Foreman was a crude wild swinger who knew only how to fight one way....liston on the otherhand was a versatile boxer puncher who could outbox you or outslug you. Foreman had to the the dumbest boxer in history in his prime.

Says who? Prove it

Fight Dead even? LOL let me guess the douglas-Tyson fight was dead even too because the scorecards said so LOL. Everyone knew liston was getting his ass kicked, ali already swelled up listons entire face....plus take into accoutn liston had a severe shoulder injury there was no reason for liston to come out and take any more punishment. If liston was a quitter, then how come he fought 8 rounds with a broken jaw vs marty marshall? how come liston twice came back from broken nose against williams??

Foreman certainly did not show alot of heart vs Young and Ali the way he quit on himself mentally...

Th Liston the way he took the big punishment from Cleveland Williams and came back to spark him...and he fought 8 rounds with a BROKEN JAW(very painful) Thats Heart and toughness too my man.....George Foreman on the otherhand was a bully with no stamina. Liston was all around the much better fighter than foreman, and seeing what foreman did to frazier...it doesnt spell well for fraziers chances. Frazier is not going to be able to come in and outbrawl sonny liston soely with his left hook...its not happening. he will get slaughtered.

Reddish noticed immediately listons shoulder was badly injured and noticing his face was lit up like a light bulb suggested to liston not to go out.

 

Liston was damm near blind himself, had taken horrendous punishment, had a severe shoulder injury, and had a good 8 rounds to go. No reason for him to come out and take more punishment.

hows liston going to come out and land a big punch when he has a sever shoulder injury and he can barely see out of his swelled up eyes?

judging by your stance then....you must give vitali a hell of alot of flack for quitting vs byrd

 

not really he was behind in all the cards. Tired, blind in 1 eye and the other eye was swollen shut.

He had hardly landed the round before and had been beaten up by Ali. Things werent looking to great for Joe where they. And to win he only had 1 round to KO Ali.

Liston had 8 rounds to beat Ali and could still win on points

 

First of all, Liston wasn't that much taller than Frazier, so all the immediate notions of Frazier being dominated by the bigger man in this fight is unrealistic.

Secondly, the Foreman fight, like I've said in other threads when discussing Frazier, is a poor comparison because George NEVER fought the same conditioned Frazier, pre-FOTC. This version of Frazier WOULD NOT have stood right in front of Foreman in the power zone after being pressured himself. Mathis, Chuvalo, Ramos, Bonavena and Quarry tried to pressure Frazier and Joe would circle back and attack the body with hooks after setting it up with his own jab. Frazier did none of this against Foreman, fought a dumb fight, and got knocked out inside two rounds. Despite the poor condition he was in, he still finished the fight on his feet trying to find his legs. What people forget is the fact that Foreman was tiring after unloading almost everything in his arsenal to finish Frazier. For this reason alone, I firmly believe a prime, better conditioned Frazier would have done a lot better against Foreman and his chance of winning the fight improve significantly after the early rounds. Foreman no doubt could have prime Frazier on the canvas once or twice early but he's not finishing him.

The exact same thing can be said about a fight between prime Sonny Liston and prime Joe Frazier. Forget about the Patterson example. Floyd was scared to death before the contract was even signed to fight Liston. He wilted both times against Liston and probably could have done a lot better for himself, especially considering Ali once called Floyd one of the most skilled boxers he's ever fought. Frazier didn't have the handspeed that Patterson exuded during his prime years, but Joe was one of the hardest, if not the hardest heavyweights to hit cleanly. Frazier's head movement, pressure, pace and body attack would be the difference prime for prime against Liston and Foreman. Liston probably hurts Joe early, and maybe has him down like Foreman in the early rounds. Unless Sonny stops Joe within five rounds, which is not happening against a prime Frazier, Joe probably stops Sonny before the bell for round 10 sounds.

 

I disagree Frazier fought the same way in every fight it was the only way he knew how to fight, keep coming.
If Frazier had stood off against Foreman ,George's jab would have found him he had to come in.As to his being hard to hit ? Have a look at his face after the FOTC,Ali is on record as saying Frazier was easy to hit.
Frazier met one really big puncher and got crucified.
Mathis was a stand up boxer with fast hands ,but lacked stamina ,and real power he did NOT try and pressure Frazier.
Chuvalo ,while tough, lacked foot and hand speed ,and was only an average hitter.
Quarry fought a stupid fight against Frazier because ,unlike Joe he had the capability to change his tactics ,he should have countered ,boxed and moved ,but he went to war in the trenches with a bigger puncher ,bad move.
Ramos flat out quit ,and he was a hyped nothing special anyway.
Bonavena gave Frazier all he wanted ,but lacked skill and speed.
Frazier had one monster win in his career, and that is what his standing is largely based on.
Liston takes him out inside 3 rds.

 

I agree with this. To add more, Frazier's own people privately admitted they did not think he would beat Liston in the mid to late 1960's.

I think Liston would win inside of five rounds.

 

liston by ko probably early. not as easy as foreman did it because of different styles but im confident in my pick

 

I have been impressed with several of the arguments you have put forward on various topics ,but I find myself at odds with you here.
You obviously dislike Liston which is your prerogative ,but to confidently assert that he was slower than Foreman and less naturally talented is wide of the mark ,imo.
The younger Liston was a very capable boxer,adept defensively and threw shorter punches than Foreman who ,to a large extent relied on scything hooks from both hands,Foreman has ,I beleive an underated jab ,but it was not on a par with Liston's
.Sonny could also slip punches ,George relied on blocking them with his gloves ,his head movement was practically nonexistant.
Liston was effective at long or short range.George ,until his comeback ,pushed his opponents back with his hands to get them at the optimum arc for his looping big stuff.
The one area where I would give Foreman best over Liston would footwork,Liston ,never learned to cut off the ring,something George was rather adept at, I feel that your obvious distaste for Liston has clouded your objectivity .

 

Actually Reddish and Polino were astonished when Liston quit,He came back to the corner sat down and grunted "thats it",Reddish thought that meant that Sonny was really going to get serious,and when he tried to hustle Liston back into readiness was the next round Liston spat out his gumshield and repeated "I told you thats it".Reddish and Polino both confirmed this in interviews.
Polino also said he juiced Sonny's gloves with a hot salve /linement,then tossed the jar under the ring.