Wladamir Klitschko is the new heavyweight king (long overdue)

Holyfield got cracked an awful lot too, Bokaj. Would you argue that he was less of a technician than Wlad because of that?

I don't credit Lewis with being much of a technician, though he was better than Wlad and Vitali. Bowe and Holyfield were technicians but they were also aggressive fighters. Aggressive fighters are going to get hit regardless of their level of skill.

Wlad takes virtually no risks. Does this mean that he is a better technician than those two? That's bad reasoning.

Wlad and Vitali have a little brother named Radu who's 6'8. Radu is the superior technician because he stands on the ring apron outside the ropes, closes his eyes and throws those super long arms at his opponent. Never mind those disqualifications, he's never been hit, so he must be a better technician than Jersey Joe Walcott, who was hit.

Hey, this sport is about not being hit, right? Wrong. Boxing is about taking risks.

 

Funnily enough I was just thinking about that. For me, Holyfield is probably the technically most complete fighter at 205+ lbs, but I recently argued with ChrisP (who disagreed) that he wasn't a master boxer, merely a very good one. That's mostly because he tactically fought the wrong fight so often. So, he had a good defense technically, but not tactically.

Bowe lacked in both IMO, but tactically he didn't need to be defensive with those offensive tools, really. Technically, it's never a bad idea. Watch them and you'll see that while Holyfield many times fights the stupid fight, it's also he that slips, ducks and blocks. Not Bowe. For me that rules Bowe out as a technician, according to your defintion. I also don't think Bowe's range fighting was good enough. He was an amazing infighter for his size, though.

Should also say that I've never claimed Wlad to be technically superior to either Bowe nor Lewis. It was just to put things in perspective.

I said "hit without getting hit". There's a difference.

But I agree with you that Wlad is one boring *******. He's been KO'd a couple of times, though, so he's got his reasons, I suppose.

For the record, I've never called Wlad a technician. And I agree with you that he shouldn't really be called one. But Holyfield is possibly the only 205+ lbs guy I would call a technician. Well, Holmes possibly... And Douglas when he beat Tyson, of course.

 

So to be the best you have to beat the number 3 guy and get a free pass to duck the number 2 guy who happens to have a title, also had the ring title and never lost it! Being The champ means youve proved to be the best by beating the best. Wlad isnt doing that so will never be undisputed champ or lineal.

Vitali still has the stronger lineage as champion.

Vitali actuallty fought the last champ, in Lewis`s last fight. The same people that call Wlad lineal say that Vitali beat Lewis! Therefore Vitali would be the legit lineal! Wlads never fought the champ, win or lose!

But apart from that, Vitali fought for Lewis`s vacant title against Sanders [who was WBO champ]. Sanders had beaten Wladimir in his last fight and Vitali then beat Sanders. Vitali holds the lineage of victory over Wladimir through Wlads unavenged loss to Sanders. Vitali won Lewis`s retired belt and in reality the WBO belt since Sanders was only stripped of it for fighting for the WBC belt!

Vitali gained the Ring belt also which he never lost and the same people that are calling Wlad lineal for holding it called Vitali lineal. He retired without losing his championship so surely retains the linealality. When he returned from retirement he beat the holder of his WBC belt to clear up any claim to that status.

Wlad gained his IBF belt from Byrd! Byrds claim to that belt was beating an undeserving 42 year old Holyfield for a VACANT paper title at the time that Lewis was THE CHAMPION, that belt did not make Byrd champion. Lewis was. Wlad also gained the paper and VACANT IBO title in this fight! All Wlads belts were Vacant titles with no lineage behind them greater than Vitali`s.

The WBO belt Wlad holds was won off Ibragimov in the worst fight in history, Ibragimov won the belt from a line that goes back to a VACANT championship fight for it which Wlad lost to Brewster after it was stripped from the holder, Sanders who ko`d Wlad for the WBO belt and then lost that lineage to Vitali.

THERFORE WE CAN CONCLUDE THAT THE LINEAGE OF CHAMPIONSHIPS RUN STRONGER THROUGH TO VITALI KLITSCHKO.

To summerise, Vitali holds this over Wlad,

Lewis`s retired title, WBC.
He never lost the Ring title.
Lineage of victory over Wlad.
Lineage of WBO title. plus Wlads never been Emiritus!

Who really thinks Wlad would beat Vitali?

 

This is some well-reasoned stuff.

I disagree that Bowe wasn't technically skilled. I see him slip, block, weave, counter, work inside very skillfully, angle in, angle out... he is technically skilled. Bowe's skills were clouded, by what I see, by insecurity, and 2 cardinal sins in gluttony and sloth. He also liked to mix it up a bit too much. But you don't beat a prime Holyfield if you don't have serious potential to be great. Bowe squandered that potential but on that one night, he's a tough man to beat.

You don't train under Futch and miss that skill stuff. Futch believed, rightly so, that technique is the foundation of the game. It's the most critical part of the boxing toolbox otherwise football players and basketball plays would moonlight and dominate. But they don't. Overall, they suck... Why? Because they have put the years in with drills and skill development in the gym and ring experience

Interesting stuff. I don't necessarily agree wtih that last part, but recognize the validity of your argument.

Tyson wasn't a technician? Louis? Liston?

 

Wow. Reality must hurt. I usually like your observations but you are so very wrong on this.

Boxing is not written in a text book. It is not algebra or trig. And it is certainly not one size fits all. It is athletes finding a style that perfectly compliments their abilities and then ruling every fight by THEIR design. Wlad is the kind of this.

And he beats most on that list hands down. Picasso himself used "simple" lines but did more with simplicity than his contemporaries achieved with too much artiface.

 

Let's not forget, Picasso's resume was sorely lacking because he never got to square off against a real ATG like Monet. There was literally no competition for the Cubist champion.

 

I set the bar at 205+ lbs to get out of discussing Louis. Liston could actually be called a technician. I find him being quite complete. He wasn't that good at cutting the ring off, but otherwise...

I won't call Tyson a technician for the simple reason that he never showed he could fight going backwards. For me, this is a serious flaw. He never showed that he could handle opponents that moved him backwards, out of his element. Curiously enough he didn't show much inside fighting either, but I believe he had some skills here. Against Ferguson he showed some great infighting.

 

Braque is turning around in his grave right now. To forget the Wills of the cubist movement like that... For shame.

 

" I could slip a lot more punches and win by being defensive ,but I don't because it bores me" Sugar Ray Robinson.

 

"I humppfff hupffmmf ffjeif rrrjgpg a good jpfooope" - Riddick Bowe

 

Okay, let me put it this way.


The next fight Wlad loses, i'm 99% sure that it will be because of his lack of durability or something similar, rather than being outboxed.

If he loses on points (and i'm talking a fair decision) that is not due to several knockdowns, then i will have whatever gay avatar you want me to have for a month.

Dokes, Tillis, hands protecting the thighs Tunney, Biggs, Morrison, Williams?

They couldn't outjab a top opponent if their life depended on it. I will grant you that they slip more punches, but again, that's because it suits their style better than it does Wlad's. Patterson is going to duck more punches because he has to. How much chance does he have of outjabbing a top opponent? Again, this is hardly a list of poor technicians. And Wlad has the better jab and right hand than 80% of them.

Yes, Tyson COULD land jabs, just like Wlad CAN (and has) slipped and ducked punches. But it wasn't what either of them often did because it didn't fit their modus operandi.

Uncomfortable and stiff or not, Wlad's jab, footwork and technique has dominated nearly all of his recent opponents and was so effective that two guys known for their toughness quit on their stool because he's too inpenetrable. Tell me how a poor technician achieves this?

Surely if he is so technically flawed, someone would've taken advantage? The only one who ever beat Wlad on a technical level was Sanders; a southpaw with very fast hands that hits like a truck, something not many former champions had to deal with on a technical level.

And that's only one. Ali lost on a technical level to Norton and Young and had trouble with Mildenberger (southpaw), Jones and others. Holmes also with Norton, Witherspoon and Williams. Holyfield with Moorer (another southpaw), etc etc.

Actually, Wlad does plenty of that stuff. Against Mercer he ducks below a jab and then fires a triple left hook, knocking the iron chinned opponent down. I could point out tons of moments that Bowe gets tagged because of his wide-open defence.

And i'm not avoiding Bowe-Holy I. Holyfield was doing the better work whenever the fight was on a technical level, and outlanded Bowe 2:1 for the first 5 rounds. He simply couldn't keep up whereas Bowe was too big and strong and could overwhelm his smaller opponent, even when taking more than giving.

 

I don't know what Stonehands89 is talking about. Wlad is a very good technican. His jab, right hand, clinching skills, and glove placement for defense are excellent.

 

No to laugh at that kind of misfortune, but your point is very well made.

 

My keyboard has been idle on ESB for a while but it's rumbles like this that start good fires. I'm wrong? Bring it!

Have you read my earlier posts? I've said repeatedly that Wlad is a difficult man to beat. His height, strength, reach and yes, his unwillingness to take risks make it so. He's like Mike McTigue on stilts.

But don't tell me this man is a technician. Because he is not.

I'll clarify this further: I see fighter's as generally fitting into three general styles including the technician, the athlete, and the warrior. Wlad is an athlete. He relies on his natural assets, height, reach, strength, and power. CP and you seem to be suggesting that Wlad is a technician in disguise... he's Picasso advanced to another level. That's fantasy. The man has a basic though in my opinion a flawed stance, he's developed a strong jab, an infrequent though powerful right hand, and what has become a rare left hook. And he holds alot. He understands how to keep his man at range. This is boxing 101. Wlad doesn't fight inside, his defensive moves consist of holding and retreating and at times turning away from punches. He throws one or two punches at a time and misses an awful lot because he's (pathologically) tentative. You say, he doesn't need to do any of that fancy stuff. I agree. But you seem to disagree with me when I confidently state that he is no technician.

Eh. You overestimate Wlad's chances against serious HWs from the past. I don't think Wlad handles pressure well from guys who know what they're doing, who have the requisite strength and who will sustain that pressure.

 

Stonehands returns.