Joe Gans on Langford vs. Ketchel

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Cmoyle, Jun 28, 2009.


  1. Cmoyle

    Cmoyle Active Member Full Member

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    From the June 8, 1910 edition of the Arizona Democrat. The following quote is attributed to Joe Gan in an article titled 'Joe Gans Will Summer in Prescott":

    "Gans was this morning asked to express an opinion on the Ketchel-Langford fight which is to take place in Frisco on July 3 and which is second in importance only to the Jeffries-Johnson bout. His reply was that he considered Ketchel a great fighter, but thought Langford was a better one.

    "Ketchel can hit a blow with either hand that is like the kick of a mule and woudl lay Langford or any other man low that it struck, but Langford is also a terrific hitter and in addition is a mighty clever man and hard to hit. I figure that Langford will win over Ketchel well within the twenty-five rounds that the fight has been limited to."

    Gans was Langford's chief second a couple of months ago when the wonderful Weymouth negro fought Ketchel six rounds in Philadelphia. In speaking of this fight, Gans said this morning that Langford for three rounds simply tore Ketchel to pieces, slowing up for trhe last three rounds evidently with the idea of saving Ketchel for a longer fight."

    This is fairly consistant with what Langford said about that fight.
     
  2. Hank

    Hank Well-Known Member Full Member

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    Since Gans and Langford were both Black, and friends, is it any surprise Gans gives Langford the fight? And he 'Saved him" Please, Ketchel was great, no one was going to carry him 3 rounds.
     
  3. My2Sense

    My2Sense Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Given that Gans was his friend and working his corner, that would be expected.

    I've never seen an account outside of Langford and his crew that indicates the fighters were giving any less than their best efforts. Quite the contrary in fact, they say they were both fighting their hearts out for the full 6 rounds.
     
  4. Sam Dixon

    Sam Dixon Member Full Member

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    Here's a few accounts (bottom post of page) out of the fight's location that I posted last month if you're interested, M2S;

    http://www.eastsideboxing.com/forum/showthread.php?t=122243&page=3
     
  5. Cmoyle

    Cmoyle Active Member Full Member

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    "I've never seen an account outside of Langford and his crew that indicates the fighters were giving any less than their best efforts. Quite the contrary in fact, they say they were both fighting their hearts out for the full 6 rounds. "

    Like Sam Dixon say's they exist, and they're not difficult to find if one goes thru various newspaper accounts of the fight.
     
  6. Cmoyle

    Cmoyle Active Member Full Member

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    The Philadelphia Record – Headline “Langford Bests Stanley Ketchel, Boxing Entirely on the Defensive the Black Man Landed Most Blows – White Boy Made Fight – Forcing the Contest in Every Round and Was Well Winded at Finish”:

    “Fighting cautiously and continually on the defensive, Sam Langford, colored, had the better of Stanley Ketchel, white, in a six round bout at the National Athletic Club last evening before a crowded house that netted about $20,000, the big end of which went to the white man. Ketchel forced the fight in nearly every round, and had the better of the third and fifth rounds in which Langford did little but block. Also to Stanley should go whatever honors were gained in the first round, for there, as during nearly every instand of the fight, the white boy was forcing. But he usually forced in vain, for the black’s guard was well nigh invulnerable. There was really nothing done in the first round, however, since boty men were intent on feeling the other fellow out. The second and fourth rounds were Langford’s, and so was the sixth, in which Ketchel cut loose with all the visciousness for which he is noted, only to find that Langford, strong, clever and cool, could stop his blows and occasionally shoot a straight left to the face that came with double force since it caught Ketchel coming in.

    (Paragraph titled ‘Langford Did Not Try His Best’) – Just what Langford could have done to Ketchel last night, had he cut loose, can only be surmised, but he surely did not try his best to gain a decisive victory last evening, apparently being well content to block and counter and wait to gather the persimmon that he must surely feel is his, in a longer and better paying contest on the Pacific Coast.

    It must not be forgotten, however, that Langford, by fighting continually on the defensive, had a great advantage and it must also be remembered that had Ketchel fought in the same manner every round would have been just as uninteresting as was the first. Ketchel made the fight from start to finish and deserves credit for it. Langford played safe and blocked and countered and did it so skillfully that he easily outpointed the white man. Had Sam cut loose with a few leads on his own account he might not have been able to avoid so many of Ketchel’s hard and well delivered blows.

    (Paragraph titled ‘First Blood for Ketchel) – Langford spit blood from a slight cut on the lip before the first round was half over, but that was about all the damage that was done him. The claret was started from Ketchel’s nose late in the fourth round and from that time on he bled profusely. There was no semblence of a knockdown, although Langford slipped to his knees just before the bell in the fifth round. Ketchel nearly fought himself out in trying to get to Langford in the final round, but Sam blocked every effort and occasionally shot out that straight left to the face, about the only blow he used during the contest. His right was always busy blocking, and he never attempted to follow up any of the openings that presented themselves.

    By so doing he saved a lot of trouble for himself, for Ketchel on several occasions let go a right swing that would have felled an ox had Langford run into one of them trying to stop Ketchel.

    Some of the spectators seemed to think that Ketchel, having forced the fighting, should be given credit for a victory, but it is difficult to see how that could honestly be done since a great majority of his blows did not land.

    They reported that when the men met in the center of the ring prior to the start of the contest to shake hands that Ketchel did not look to be too well trained and appeared nervous and worried. Ketchel wore red trunks and Sam pea green.

    Highlights by round:
    Round 2 – Sam staggered Ketchel with a left in the face and they came into a clinch. At one point Ketchel butted Sam in the head and Sam returned the compliment. There was some hissing and the referee warned the men to stop it.

    Round 3- Sam utilized an uppercut to catch Ketchel as he would come in close. The bell rang to end the round and each tried to land afterwards, to seperated by the referee.

    Round 4 – Ketchel again did the leading but his blows did no damage. They had a lively rally, fighting all over the ring. It was in Langford’s favor, as he blocked most of Ketchel’s blows, while occasionally getting in some hard raps himself. Sam landed a stiff jab to Stanley’s nose, bringing the blood. Ketchel was tiring and he could not protect himself. Ketchel was holding on to avoid punishment. Ketchel came back and staggered Sam with a hard right to the head. Ketchel was tired and bleeding as he went back to his corner.

    Round 5 – Ketchel came out of his corner in good shape and again forced the fighting. He landed on Sam’s head and want after him hammer and tongs, Langford backing away and trying to ward off the shower of blows which Ketchel was sending him. Then Sam steadied and landed a stiff jab to Ketchel’s nose and started the blood from his organ freely again. They went at each other at the end of the round and Sam slipped to the floor just before the bell rang.

    Round 6 – Ketchel started to make a grand stand finish of it, and he went right at Langford landing on the body hard. After a clinch, Sam once again landed a stiff jab to the nose starting the blood once again. They clinched and Ketchel landed hard on the body, and worked hard in clinches to get to Sam’s body, but Langford held him off and laughed. Then they broke away and Langford landed two jabs on Ketchel’s nose and the blood fairly gushed. It was noticed that Langford was using only one hand and it looked to those close to the ring as if he was not exerting himself very much. Ketchel roughed it at close quarters, trying for an uppercut, and Langford blocked his blows and stalled him off. They were doing this sort of thing when the bell rang”
     
  7. Cmoyle

    Cmoyle Active Member Full Member

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    England’s Boxing magazine, issue May 14, 1910 account of the fight:
    “You would have to travel some distance before you found a greater artist in bunk than Samuel Langford. His allowing Stanley Ketchel to get the decision over him was just the dandiest bit of “business” craft. He is a careful man is Sam, it is a sure thing he does not waste his material, he just uses it for a while, puts it away and brings it out again when wanted for “business” purposes. Oh, he is a wise guy!

    “The Assassin” from Michigan is just the real goods Langford (or is it Woodman) likes to deal in and is the sort Sam (or is it Joe?) stores up carefully for the future.

    After their Philadelphia “go” what a pile of money they will pull when they have that contest over marathon route on the West Coast. Not that they had much to complain of in Philadelphia on the score of dollars. The chunk Langford got was a fair sized one, and he cannot be said to have given value for it.

    It was plain Ketchel was not in Langford’s play, he took himself seriously all the time, and worked in a way that showed he meant to try and bring off a k.o. while the dusky genius contented himself with steadying Steve with one of his pretty jolts whenever that lively boy got too busy. Ketchel’s fighting was real hard, and it was a sure thing that some of the punches he got home, and he got a good many, must have hurt. Sam early on got to Stanley’s nose and set the gore flowing, and as this gave a nice realistic look to the “business,” he kept tapping Ketchel on the same spot every now and then just to keep the ring looking real good.

    But despite the fine stage effect of the gory nose he so ably engineered, the general opinion was that Langford’s effort was a long way below his proper form. He went in with windmill-like swings, which were mostly wide of their mark, and when they did get home there seemed little or no force behind them. Once he was so earnest in trying to k.o. Ketchel that he never heard the bell and kept on fighting. There was one thing very noticeable, that if he did not make connection to effect a knockout himself, he took considerable care that Ketchel did not either with any of the likely punches he was handing out.

    The work in the first round set the wise fans thinking some. A few minutes spar, and Ketchel started one of his famous let shifts that seemed to say that he meant to finish the “business’ up in the first round with a k.o. But he only started the shift, he never finished it, for he saw it was doomed to failure as Langford had given signs that he was not stopping for any contact to be completed. Sam had moved just enough to doom the move to failure and emphasized the effect of his wide smile by planting a wicked jolting left full on Ketchels face.

    Stan had come prepared with sure things in the way of excuses, if he should not make good. In the first place, he had hurt his right hand in his bout with Frank Klaus, and it was still very tender, to prove which, he had cocaine injected, apparently with good results, as, during the fight, although it was used, and pretty freely, it seemed to cause him no inconvenience.

    Ketchel was first to show in the ring. He had on a raincoat instead of the usual gaudy gown, and when he peeled showed the well known crimson silk fighting togs. He looked in just real, fine condition, and his friends were saying that he would win with a k.o. for sure. Langford looked the same animated bronze he always does and wore pea-green silk tights.

    In the second if either fighter had a shade the best of it, it was Langford, who got home two heavy punches to the jaw. Here Sam began to make play with his head; as this was one of the things McGuigan had warned them both when they started was not in the game, he stopped them and gave Sam a caution. In the meantime the fans sat up and howled their disapproval of his conduct. Sam assured the referee the rough stuff would be cut out.

    They sparred for a few minutes, when Ketchel found an opening and shot a left to Sam’s face that spun him around like a top. He was back like lightining, however, and sprang for Stanley with his usual teeth showing smile.

    In the third round Sam handed out some dandy blows, the first made Ketchel think he had made connection with a star factory, and the second set a red stream trickling from both his nose and mouth. He bled quite a lot, which during the rest of the fight gave his face and chest a continous ruddy tinge. It did not cause him to ease up at all; in fac, quite the other way, it set him working harder than ever, and as to the fight fans, they were delighted, it made them feel they were getting sure good value for their dollars.

    Near the end of the 3rd round Ketchel tried a rush, but was met by a stinging inside left to the jaw that set him stalling. To everyone’s surprise, Langford did not follow up to his advantage. There could be little doubt if he had it would have been a sure k.o. for Ketchel. As it was, Sam let him stall, and eased up, waiting for the bell to ring.

    Round 4- In the fourth round, after a clinch, Ketchel engineered another of his marvellous shifts, but again the killer did not come off. Instead, he got one of Sam’s patent short jolts full on his nose, with the result that the gory fluid splashed over them both. Sam followed this up with a couple more to the head of the sam pattern, and Stanley got into such a bad way that if the ordinary Langford had been there his fate would have been sealed, but it was not the ordinary Langford, it was a lazy imitation of the originaly, who was not taking trouble to materialize his chances, and who contented himself just as the bell rung by getting home an uppercut that hurt.

    Round 5 – Round five was a good deal like round four. It saw good chances for a k.o. victory for Langford going begging; while Ketchel worked hard, and got home enough punches joined to his forcing tactics to give him the verdict. But it’s a pretty sure thing very few of these punches hurt Massa Langford much.

    Round 6 – Ketchel dashed off with a rush and slammed away like a hurricane-tormented windmill. Langford backed away, seemed dazed, and then clinched. The crowd thought he was all in, and yelled for Ketchel to go in and finish him. He tried, but getting a glove on Sam that he did not want was a difficult job.

    The spectators were a bit sorry for themelves. When it was over they felt they had seen a great show but a poor fight, despite Stanley’s plentiful supply of carmine.”
     
  8. Cmoyle

    Cmoyle Active Member Full Member

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    4/29/1910 - The Evening Telegram (N.Y. Paper)
    ‘Langford On Points’ General Verdict On Bout With Ketchel. Negro Fighter in Half of the Six Rounds Showed That He is More Clever and Effective Than the “Assassin.”
    Philadelphia, Pa., Thursday - “Of the 4,500 spectators who saw the six round bout between Stanley Ketchel and “Sam” Langford, probably 4,400 gave the verdict to Sam Langford on points. The referee could give no decision because it is not allowed by the laws under which boxing is held in Pennsylvania.

    It was almost the unanimous belief that Langford was better all through the fight, and better at the end of the fight than his opponent. Even if Ketchel had tried hard to get into condition, he was not the same Ketchel who met “Philadelphia Jack” O’Brien in New York. He had neither the speed nor the endurance which he possessed, and if he is to continue as a boxing factor in the future he will have to take better care of himself than he has in the past.

    The arena of the club was packed to the doors. There were as many persons outside as inside, who clamored for tickets, but it was announced late in the afternoon that every ticket had been sold and that no opportunity existed to purchase one.

    Spectators did not get many, but those which they purchased they sold for about four hundred percent profit. Ordinary seats were worth $15 and the good seats were simply out of the question.

    In the early part of the fight the boxing was tame. Both of the men semed to be slow and not overanxious to mix it much. As the fight progressed and the principals got “down to business” they gave Philadelphians one of the greatest exhibitions of boxing which have been seen in the city since there has been boxing under the present law.

    Both men were quick on their feet and resembled lightweights in action, whle they were hitting with all the force and strength of heavyweights.

    It was Langford’s persistent and effective jabbing which one him the popular verdict. He kept his left hand playing around Ketchel’s body and face all the time, while Stanley, although when he did hit an effective blow generally made it count, missed so many that his work appeared slovenly and awkward compared with that of the Negro.

    In plain language, Langford appeared to be far more cleverer than Ketchel, and the showing that he made was so good that his friends again called attention to the fact that in his present condition he is abundantly able to meet “Jack” Johnson and probably give him the fight of his life if a match were arranged between them.

    The receipts were said to have been in excess of $20,000, and of this amount Ketchel will receive about $8,000 while Langford’s share will amount to about $7,000.

    The men were at catch weights and “Jack” McGuigan was referee. Toward the close of the fight Ketchel seemed to be tiring, and his mode of life after his match with Johnson in California undoubtedly was the cause of it. Both men hit some awfully hard blows. Ketchel’s gameness is unquestioned. No matter how hard or how often Langford hit him, he kept coming back and probably would have continued much longer, although it looked as if Langford would win a prolonged fight.”
     
  9. Cmoyle

    Cmoyle Active Member Full Member

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    April 29, 1910 – Philadelphia Public Ledger – “…Each man got a square deal by the referee; both were paid well for their services. But did the public get value received? The writer has no hesitancy in saying No! The gate was as large, with the exception of a few championship battles, as any 25-round contest held on the Pacific coast. The share of the fighters was greater, for they received an unusual percentage. Hench, each should have fought at top speed for five of the six rounds. That was due the public, which paid from $3 to $10 a seat to witness the go.

    Sam Langford fought under wraps. He allowed Ketchel to set the pace, and was content to follow, landing an occasional blow while the latter was going away. He only used his right hand four times in the first five rounds, and would doubtless have maintained that record to the finish had not Ketchel bored in during the sixth round and compelled the negro to extend himself. It was then that Langford showed his hand, when he drove a wicked right hand uppercut home, a blow which could have sent Ketchel to dreamland any time it landed on a vulnerable spot. But the result of Wednesday night’s bout is merely a recital of Langford’s ring record. He is perhaps the most remarkable man in the ring today. There is no man who can so accidentally “pull” his blows as Langford can, and it was this little artifice, which the writer carefully studied, and which fooled thousands at the National Club on Wednesday night, that made the bout look ***** in spots.
    …..
    Take a glimpse at Langford’s record. It is without parallel in the history of the ring. To begin with, he fought Jack Blackburn five times. Dave Holly four. Then he graduated into the heavier class, meeting George Gunther three times, Young Peter Jackson six times, Larry Temple four times, Joe Jeannette four, and his great return act with Jim Barry nine times. The last time, when he came to the conclusion that the Barry engagement had been worn threadbare, he promptly knocked him out.

    Joe Woodman, manager of Langford, was so eager to have a clean sweep so far as the middleweight title was concerned that he told all promoters to get Ketchel at any price. Pay him any percentage and we will be satisfied with the balance. Sam wants the middleweight title and will drop Ketchel inside the six round limit. It is no wonder that the bout attracted a gate estimated to be more than $20,000. It is said Ketchel received about $8,400 of this amount, while the negro and his manager pulled down a little over $7,000. Sufficient money for 18 minutes worth for each man to go at top speed all the way. The only way that Langford can square himself in this city with the sports is to meet Al Kaufman, Battling Jim Johnson or some other good man and let us see the real Sam Langford, the man who caused Jack Johnson to sidestep so quickly that he almost twisted his ankle.

    The writer gave the decision to Stanley Ketchel over Langford for what he did in the six rounds fought, not what would be accomplished in eight, 10 or 20 rounds. Ketchel did the leading, carried the fight to the negro, took all the chances and had Langford fought his fight it is not likely that the bout would have reached the limit. Those who know boxing are cogizant of the fact that the man who does the leading, especially in such a wild awkward fashion as Ketchel does, take all the chances. Invite a counter and with little or no defence are apt to run into a jolt. If their opponent is not under “wraps.” Lanford played for the longer fight and the sports of the East paid for the curtain raiser. Last night Ketchel refused a purse of $15,000 to meet Langford, offered by Billy McCarney, who came from California for that purpose. Ketchel said “I have won a popular decision over the negro and I will pass him up at present.”
     
  10. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    This would appear to confirm ,what I have allways suspected,that Langford took it easy ,hoping for a bigger payday later.
     
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Pretty astonishing stuff. Imagine carrying a fighter of Ketchel's standing? Imagine carrying a puncher that destructive? Absolutley awesome, Langford is in a class of his own.
     
  12. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    Thanks Cmoyle.

    My take on the fight is Langford was the better. It is interesting to note that the papers considered Ketchel " Wild and awkward " . I agree with this as well. To me Ketchel is one of the most over rated old time greats. One can see how wild and wide Ketchel was on his two existing films show.
     
  13. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    Different class of fighter ... who believes that a face first brawler like Ketchel could defeat Langford? Langford was stronger, faster, harder hitting, took a better punch, better defensively , heavier and defeated much larger and better opposition through out his entire career.

    The best black fighters routinely carried white fighters to both get matches and build up bigger return bouts for large money. Tell me Langford carried Marciano and I'm say bullsh-t ... but the much smaller Ketchel, I have no problem believing it ...
     
  14. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Interesting. I also think it's interesting that he was regarded as "Wild and awkward" in his day when he's seen by some as being typical of the age.

    Don't you think he was a skilled in fighter though? And you must respect his power and his fighting heart?
     
  15. Mendoza

    Mendoza Hrgovic = Next Heavyweight champion of the world. banned Full Member

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    I think Ketchel had good speed and great power for his size. Ketchel was tough too.

    In terms of skills, Ketchel looks easy to hit on film. On offense, he looks like a wild swing for the fences type.