Frazier vs Walcott

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by robert ungurean, Jun 29, 2009.


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  1. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Prime Sandy Cabbage, who we also never saw, beats Jack Dempsey 10-4.
     
    McGrain, Jul 1, 2009
    McGrain, Jul 1, 2009
    #31
  2. he grant

    he grant Historian/Film Maker

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    Frazier stops him in the mid - late rounds ..
     
    he grant, Jul 1, 2009
    he grant, Jul 1, 2009
    #32
  3. Flea Man

    Flea Man มวยสากล Full Member

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    Agreed
     
    Flea Man, Jul 1, 2009
    Flea Man, Jul 1, 2009
    #33
  4. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Ali looked shaky because he was hurt in the 9th ,the round he predicted he would put Oscar away,"I allmost predicted against myself ,both of us got shook",If you think that was a dominant performance well-----.
    Jose Torres watching from ringside thought Ali was unconvincing .
    Bonavenas durability is a bit overated imo. he was dropped by Folley and Ellis. Lyle NEVER KOD a top 10 guy,Patterson was past his best when he fought Bonavana, Chuvalo never had a big wallop.Maybe, as Frazier couldnt floor Bonavena in 2 fights you should question his vaunted left hook rather than praise Oscar's chin?
     
    mcvey, Jul 1, 2009
    mcvey, Jul 1, 2009
    #34
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Ali not predicting correctly when he would put away a highly durable HW does not constitute failure.

    I did not state at any time that it was dominant. What i said was it was impressive that he is the only man, ever, to have stopped Boneva, and it is impressive, unquestionably an excellent achievment.

    Again, if Bonovena doesn't get stopped by Ali he moves into the "unstoppable" category.

    Anybody watching that fight and predicting that Ali's style had changed and that this style would go on to bring him the most impressive results of his career with that style would have needed a crystal ball. Of course he looked unimpressive compared to his dancing peak. Every HW who ever lived does. Torres would have been hoping, even expecting to see the return of Williams Ali. A different fighter had taken his place, the one that would cement his #1 legacy.

    You wouldn't be saying that if he had never, ever been stopped, which just highlights what an impressive achievment this was by Muhammad.

    Chuvalo had a decent KO% and KO's are what we are discussing.

    If you are calling Frazier's hitting power into question because he didn't stop this guy, I think you are grossly underestimating this fighter, stopped only once despite having fought on past his peak and in spite of his less than incredible defence.

    Much greater fighters got stopped late against poor/middling opponents training the way he did late on, not Bonovena whose chin only failed him once, against the "shaky" Ali.
     
    McGrain, Jul 1, 2009
    McGrain, Jul 1, 2009
    #35
  6. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    Ok Hamish , do you think you saw Ali 's best?
    Smart retorts dont cut it for me. The guy was out of the ring for 3 1/2 years ,had 18 rds of ring action ,comes back and gives the number one heavyweight in the world life and death.Give him a 4 month lay off after the Bonavena fight and another 10 rounder against a lower top ten guy ,and with that under his belt he beats Frazier.
    Harry Greb fought top rated men 2 divisions above his natural weight, while he was blind in one eye.
    Sam Langford at 5 7in going blind met and defeated 6' 6in heavyweights.
    All this about Frazier being done after FOTC.Hyper tension etc
    Ali went on for f***** g years !
    While Frazier was disgracing the title meeting Daniels and Stander .Ali was fighting Ellis 4 months after the FOTC, followed by Mathis and Blin all in the same year of FOTC, it was 10 months before Frazier got back in the ring and he fought a man not in the top 40!
    After beating Ali, Frazier defended his title against 2 men NOT RATED , he cheapened the title, during that period imo.
    Frazier beat ONE ATG ONCE, out of 3 tries, when he had everything in his favour, he could never duplicate it again.
     
    mcvey, Jul 1, 2009
    mcvey, Jul 1, 2009
    #36
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    No. But i'm absolutley sure that his stopping an otherwise unstopped durable HW and getting punched hard in the process is not indicitive of his being "shaky". It was a great achievment and anyone who is trying to devalue Frazier's win over Ali has to explain this astonishing KO win before they can do so.


    ...and you think this backs up your argument that he was shaky?

    I disagree. Explain what it is that makes you so sure that 28 rounds at the highest level makes him so completely ready whereas 18 rounds at that level leaves him "shakey", in spite of results showing the contrary.

    People expected Ali to look like Ali. He didn't, he was a newer version. The guy stopped Quarry faster than anyone, ever. Explain how he did that if he is so shaky?

    He then became the only man to stop Bonovena, ever. Explain how he did that if he is so shaky?

    Ali would go on to beat Frazier twice, Norton twice, Foreman, a host of others. He never looked like the man who beat Williams, he never would again. He was a new kind of fighter, one that went on to become the greatest that had ever lived, with one of the best wins in the divisions history under his belt.



    If you think any of this proves that

    A - Ali was shaky going into the FOTC

    or

    B - Frazier was not very ill after the FOTC

    I don't know what to say to you. There is certainly no retort.
     
    McGrain, Jul 1, 2009
    McGrain, Jul 1, 2009
    #37
  8. mcvey

    mcvey VIP Member Full Member

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    My second response was to your remark about Dempsey.Sarcastic and irrelevant.
    I said we never saw Ali 's prime , and I beleive that .I think Ali's performance against Bonavena was unconvincing, he was flat footed for long periods , and the pace dropped noticeably. On paper Bonavena should be made for Ali ,his defence was poor and his hand and foot speed were pretty average,it didnt turn out that way ,and I beleive it was because Ali wasnt ready for a 15rds war , he needed more ring rounds.
    I never said ,or implied that Ali was shaky going into the FOTC.
    What I think is ,he needed more ring work before taking on Frazier.
    I think this can be seen by how he handles Frazier in the second fight.
    Im not trying to devalue Frazier's win at all ,but i beleive it would have been a victory for Ali, IF he had more ring rounds under his belt.
    Quarry was stopped on a cut eye in under three rounds , Ali himself said he was winded after the first 2 rds. I dont think you can make any comparisons there, cut eye stoppages are not conclusive.
    I think Frazier's health problems are overplayed ,after beating Ali he got complacent put on fat and partied ,he paid the price for it as all athletes do ,including Ali ,who by the way had chronic bad hands for the second Frazier fight.Frazier lost it after FOTC but that was largely his fault imo .
     
    mcvey, Jul 1, 2009
    mcvey, Jul 1, 2009
    #38
  9. ChrisPontius

    ChrisPontius March 8th, 1971 Full Member

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    :lol:
     
    ChrisPontius, Jul 1, 2009
    ChrisPontius, Jul 1, 2009
    #39
  10. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Like everyone else I just can't see Walcott pulling it off. He would have his moments during the first 5 rounds, then it would be all Joe I think. Probably a late stoppage. Would be a very good fight.
     
    Bokaj, Jul 1, 2009
    Bokaj, Jul 1, 2009
    #40
  11. janitor

    janitor VIP Member Full Member

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    I think that Frazier would have had less problems with them than Marciano did for various stylistic reasons.
     
    janitor, Jul 1, 2009
    janitor, Jul 1, 2009
    #41
  12. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Yeah, I also feel that way.
     
    Bokaj, Jul 1, 2009
    Bokaj, Jul 1, 2009
    #42
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