Marciano vs Frazier

Obviously a pre 1973 Frazier was better conditioned and therefore had better stamina. I disagree with you on the assessment of who had the better workrate, or who "could" have the better workrate. I say could because there's a slight contrast in some Marciano fights. There is no way though that Frazier had superior stamina in my eyes. And I also disagree with Marciano's pace staying the same. Have you seen LaStarza II or the Moore/Charles fights? Frazier is definitely a little faster. The Frazier vs Ali is a different story and a different matchup. I would say that Frazier had a bit better footwork/footsped.

Have you seen Marciano v Charles? Rocky is throwing punches in the last round like it is round 1. He could have gone far more than 15 of he had to. Frazier, on the other hand carry a bit more weight (Some muscle, even a bit more fat I'd think). Frazier doesn't finish or throw punches the way Marciano does in Charles I and Moore. His all time best of Bonevena I, II, & Ali don't match this.

I agree.

He has to operate at a higher rate of speed & quickness to catch bigger fish? How are the big guys faster and more elusive than Charles, Walcott, or even Moore? In this case you're speaking specifically about Ali and I see Marciano having no trouble beating everyone Joe beat. Joe's resume is great but strip Ali off and Marciano's is arguably superior.

I think the bob & weave hurts Joe. Marciano fights out of the crouch and gets low. An overhand right or a big right is something that could catch him. Maybe Joe can land the left hook while Marciano rolls from his crouch but I don't see it. Joe is more of a rhythm fighter which is also a bit of a negative in my opinion, I also think this gives the illusion of a higher workrate. This is ultimately untrue. People may be getting confused of the different Marciano's and not focusing on the capabilities of Rocky. Rocky had unbelievable stamina and he fight a lot of elusive and slick fighters that required timing and patience. But he has displayed his work-rate and his ability to throw non-stop punches. FRAZIER can't much this effort. Frazier would have to try picking his shots and slowing the fight down.

I don't see Marciano losing on cuts. Charles split his nose with an elbow. Marciano was suspectible to cuts/bleeding but it was never enough to cost him a fight bearing an elbow. Frazier would probably be hitting him good hard when compared to other greats although Walcott really teed off on him. As to further elaborate on the bob & weave. Frazier was known to be more vulnerable to uppercuts and sometimes hooks. Marciano won't be able to start off combos with the jab, but neither will Frazier. That doesn't matter, this won't be a jab out or jab contest. It would be an all out war.

 

While you can't see Frazier "slowing down" I can't see Marciano "slowing down." In fact, I believe Frazier has shown to slow down more significantly when under punishment and or just from tiring out. Marciano had a descent jab to help him get inside or start combination too.

I don't believe Frazier's right hand was underrated. Frazier mostly used it to set up his missile left and pound the body with it. He rarely used it to hit someone's head and did only to set up his left. Frazier rarely uses his uppercut. But more importantly, I don't see Marciano vulnerable to the uppercut (From a Frazier). Marciano gets low and comes out attacking from angles while being low. He can and does get lower than Frazier and even if he isn't at his low-crouching position he still is not the upright defensive jab/counter puncher like Quarry. He wouldn't be set up with that from Frazier. Marciano was really only vulnerable to a uppercut like shot from Moore who was a defensive fighter with great timing and accuracy. Key thing was Marciano lunged forward while Moore went backwards... the thing is that Frazier never goes backwards.

I'm really wondering what makes people believe think Frazier would "break Marciano done." I admit that Marciano could be too much the head hunter but he did his body work. He broke down fighters arms, shoulders, and just punched everywhere. He needs to do body work and would as he saw Frazier try doing so against him. But majority opinions of Frazier having superior stamina or being the one to break down the stronger punching (With both hands) more durable fighter seems off to me.

I believe Frazier's best chance is a decision. He needs to use some of the footwork and work the angles. But frankly he doesn't do so very much unless he has to when against a dancer or fighter on his back foot. With two fighters going forward, Marciano would probably be the first to give ground to dodge a punch. But his will would keep pushing him forward. But tactically and in regards of ring intelligent, Marciano is probably underrated (As Frazier might be).

Most people seem to just be more familiar with Frazier.

Here's some quotes for perspective on Marciano's stamina, will, and power.

Abe Attell

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As another poster said, Foster isn't Moore. Besides, we all know Frazier has a wicked left hook but what makes him demolish Rocky? Rocky had better power and stamina. And in my opinion he had superior durability. Bugner a soft hitting heavy staggered Frazier. And Moore is the #4 rating puncher according to Ring Magazine. In terms of power and in terms of a puncher he is vastly underrated. And guess what, Marciano got up at 2 (Although officially recorded at 4). Moore hit him while he was off balance and coming forward and caught him with a good shot. What's more impressive is Jersey Joe had a left hook from hell that nearly destroys Charles and Rocky gets up at 3. Rocky later said the punched didn't hurt him, not even dazed him. Although that may be exaggerated, he took a hell of a shot and Jersey definitely had underrated one punch power (Floors Louis multiple times, Devastated Charles with a deadly uppercut, etc).

Bonevena had Frazier down twice. The first was a solid right hand, the second was a little push and just a push really. Frazier was just so off balance and hurt that he got dropped a second time within the same round. Rocky is for more relentless, definitely hits harder (Forget Goldman pumping his fighter up) and had far more stamina.

I would like to know what "abilities" are being overrated and especially those who are even picking Frazier (And those people believe Frazier has better stamina). Besides the left hook, quicker hands, and a little bit of a weight advantage (Something I don't see making much difference) what does Frazier have that's better than what Marciano possesses? You act as if Frazier is handedly better than Marciano in every category. What am I missing?

I agree this matchup is a fierce contest that's very tough/close. I'd figure the majority would've picked Frazier which is fine. I agree with Bummy that a lot of people are Marciano detractors while the knowledgable posters give him his dues. Still, what I have trouble accepting is that Frazier is demolishes or just runs through an "overrated" Marciano. I have trouble from those who say that Frazier would "wear him down" and that Frazier was the fighter with higher workrate and better stamina. Nobody seems to mention the better two fisted attack from Marciano as a positive for him. And it's entirely untrue that he had superior stamina.

Marciano wins late TKO. I don't see Frazier getting at him with the left hook enough. Plus Marciano can take it and the crouch position and his odd angle attack troubles Frazier.