I think you're right. This fight in the conditions of Manilla... One or both of them could very well have been seriously injured or even have died. Ali at least clinched at intervals. These guys couldn't spell the word.
Id sooner see Dempsey Frazier ,or Dempsey Louis myself, but I would be in the line waiting for a ticket if this one ever came off.:good
I have seen quite a few of Marciano's fights, and one of the main facts about his style was that he fought out of a low crouch, without a whole lot of head movement. Maybe some shoulder slips on either side, but he was not known for superior head movement, like Frazier, Tyson, or even Floyd Patterson. Frazier fought out of a crouch and was almost always bobbing, weaving and ducking from punches. Marciano's pressure and pace is nowhere near that of Frazier's. Frazier went after Ali in the 1971 FOTC showing the pace of a man nearly 30 lbs lighter, as Don Donphy said in interviews, a wicked pace. Frazier prefered to grind down his opponent in hopes of a knockout before the late rounds. Joe slows down after the 12th round because of the furious pace he set from the middle rounds. This is not to say his pace in these rounds is slow because the vast majority of heavyweight couldn't keep pace with Frazier's late round pace. NO heavyweight keeps up with the pace Joe Frazier sets from round five and onward. Marciano practically starts at one pace and doesn't increase his pressure with his footwork. Marciano like Frazier is more dangerous after the early rounds, and I do agree with you that his power doesn't diminish that much in the late rounds. However, if you compare work rate between Frazier and Marciano, including foot speed, punch output, and head movement, you'll see that Frazier was a lot busier in the middle rounds as opposed to Marciano who continues to stalk the opponent with his low crouch.
It sounds to me that you underrated Marciano's defense, like many others. A lot of his head movement came when he rolled his stomach out of that crouch and came into attack at odd angles and punched from everywhere. This made it incredibly tough for fighters to deal with. He didn't move his head the way Frazier did, but he did get lower. Even Ali noted how tough it was to hit Marciano with the jab. This was 14 years after he retired. The truth of the matter is stylistically, I find Frazier at worse odds. He bores straight at you with his head coming up and down. We know he's vulnerable to the uppercut. Imagine Rocky pouncing up from all angles to hit Frazier. He could slip the jab but sometimes low end hooks and uppercuts would get at him. I disagree. I think the general consensus is that Frazier was more so the pressure fighter (More swarmerer out of the swarmers). But take Marciano v Moore for example (When his style of swarming aggression was most drasticaly altered from 51) and you'll see immense pressure and pace. I would argue this pressure and pace beats anything Frazier displayed. Now, you can argue that conistently Frazier set a higher pressure or pace, but you have to understand that it wasn't because Marciano wasn't capable of it... in fact he was more so capable than what Frazier could do and more. So, I may concede that Fraizer opted (Key word) under a more pressure style and set a great pace with his bobbing & weaving and footsped/cornering. However, he never outworked or outthrew a Marciano at his best. No where near did he, really. Marciano sets a far greater pace from round 5 onward than Frazier. This much is obvious to the naked eye. Seems we're getting into a semantics debate. Nobody outworks or out-throws more punches than Marciano. Frazier may get in or corner better with his relentlessness and footspeed but this is a stylistic difference and has little to zero bearing on this matchup. Unfair. You're using stylistic advantages to better suit your point. Marciano's defense was different and is underated. He did take a great deal of punishment, as almost all fighters out of that style and rare breed do, however he proved a great deal he was defensively skilled. He got low and was tough to hit with the jab and rolled his stomach out of the crouch. His head movement isn't as constant and he isn't the rythm fighter Joe was. But does this offer more credence to a pace rather than style? I'll give you footspeed. But most importantly, when dealing out of the subtle style differences Marciano is the fighter with far more output. So he doesn't start crazily bob & weave relentlessly in the middle rounds... so what that's not his style? Marciano could set a punch in terms of punch output from round 5 onward far greater than Frazier and Frazier nor any heavweight in history can match this. What you describe of Marciano is Marciano and it's more Marciano of the 51. This a very slightly subtle difference in Marciano 51 than the 55 version. Some may speculate is there to be no difference and it's just a question of opponents. That's somewhat valid, but Goldman wanted Marciano to get a good start and outwork his opponent so he couldn't get outpointed the way he did against Walcott. Marciano always "worked" but he was more the stalker, slugger with less output. At least against Louis and Harry Mathews, and maybe if he fought more guys of that height (6'2 like Louis) he would have been more calculated and careful. But it's a slight style tweaked by Goldman, really. Watch Marciano v Moore and Marciano v Charles I and tell me he's just the stalking slugger. AND EVEN if he was the stalking slugger, Joe can't outwork him. Marciano is easily the best conditioned heavyweight of all time. His stamina on display, and in terms of capabilities can't be matched. And one last thing. You talk about these awesome middle rounds of Frazier. Like there something crazy or unachieveable by other men. Yet another posted said Marciano threw more punches in round 15 (Over 100) against Charles than Frazier did in round 11. So there you go? You also try to say that Frazier slows down because of such a relentless pace, as if he crazy middle rounds were impossible to maintain. Well, Rocky Marciano's punch volume/output was been higher than Frazier's in FOTC. So there you go...
Bottom line, Marciano has never fought with the pace of Joe Frazier 1967 -1971. Marciano couldn't move as fast on foot as Frazier and pressure the opponent like Joe, so there's no way he exudes the same pace Frazier displays, especially from the FOTC which you recognized yourself. Marciano fights out of a low crouch without much head movement. He counter punched more than Frazier in his career, so isn't that reflective of his pressure and pace. A fighter that counters more is not going to expedite his pace and pressure in order to land punches. Marciano threw a lot more right hands than Frazier off of a jab, sometimes setting it up specifically with a jab. Indeed Marciano's defense is different than Frazier's and underrated. I'd say Marciano's defense was better than Frazier's purely based on how he punches, and of course his hand position which is similar to Fraziers, sometimes ad midriff, sometimes under the cheeks. If Marciano tried to keep the same pace and pressure as Joe Frazier, he slow down himself. Besides, I highly doubt that he would come after Ali the same way Frazier did in the FOTC. Marciano is just not that fast on foot compared to Joe.
I don't think this fight would turn on pressure or pace to be honest. It is possibly not going to get turned into a swarming competition. The winner might just be the guy who breaks from his traditional style and fights more as a slugger. I think that Marciano is more likley to do this. Beyond that it gets complicated.
actually this is not the consensus at all, and you will find most boxing experts pick Rocky Marciano. Like Teddy Atlas said "Marciano has the two fisted power frazier did not". In a battle like this, the man with the better two fisted power and better chin takes it, so Rock wins this one for me especially the 1951 slugger version....but it would be very close. Two hands is better than one. Frazier has a better chance against the 54-55 swarmer version of rocko. Marciano by late stoppage
Okay, Marciano isn't going to fight Ali the same way Frazier did. He can't, that's not in his way to do so. Either way, the "pace" and footwork to keep with Ali isn't relevant in this fantasy matchup. It's also not relevant how Marciano fights Ali in comparison to Joe. This is Frazier vs Marciano. You claim that Marciano can't come out at the pace of Joe. I presume footwork & bobbing aren't your direct points by "pace" because that's not important in this type of matchup either. If you're suggesting that Marciano can't "out-punch" with Frazier I think you're dangerously mislead. Would it be in Marciano's best interest to try out-swarming the swarmer? Possibly not, but that we don't know. Either way, if Marciano tries being more calculated and efficient of a slugger he probably has Joe. If he gets caught up in a pressure slugfest than I still think he has good odds. Primarily because Marciano provenly can do both and has the better two fisted attack. His stamina is provenly superior and his punch-output pace has more capability. I would be inclined to agree but I would be hesitant in doing so. Sure, the Marciano of 51 is a little fresher a fighter but Marciano of 54-55 is more naturally inclined to out-swarm & out-punch Frazier. This may be a good ingredient in trying to beat Frazier. Surely he had more stamina (Compared to Frazier, not the previous version of Rocky) and could out-work/throw the "workhouse" in Frazier. We both agree he's the more durable fighter. Yes, I don't think this method of trying to wear down/break Frazier wins as quickly but the more calculating slugger has to time and get the big shots landed rather than just out-work the other fighter. I would say both are possible ingredients of success. One my be more viable an option, and an option which would end the fight in better sensation but the other is duly notably effective. I guess what's most important is that the 51 version is just better and more prime. I could have looked too into that just then. I'd still take a 31-32 year old Marciano from 54-55 compared to a 29 year old Frazier (Against Foreman or Bugner, and both Frazier's are seriously more disadvantage in comparison to the previous better versions of themselves. This Frazier can easily be out-worked in my honest opinion/assessment). This is why I believe Marciano can time and catch Frazier or even win a punch for punch fest with him (If he had to).
Bottom line....you're right, Marciano never fought at the pace of peak Frazier. Frazier would simply be too much for Marciano and it would end quite badly for Marciano. Rocky has his die-hard, loyal to the core fans (nothing wrong with that) and you are not going to change their minds.
A lot of conjecture but no reasoning or explanation. Why would Frazier be too much and why would it end quite badly? You guys really hold on to your words like "pace" and "pressure." Bottom line, Marciano had superior stamina and superior punch output.
Dr. Ferdie Pacheco once said Joe Frazier had the greatest quantity of stamina that he's ever seen in a heavyweight. He's said this numerous times in different interviews, specifically the "Greatest Fights Ever" broadcast of the FOTC. Now, there's been controversy about the Fight Dr's validity because many on this forum have said he's changed his statements over the years, whether it's to support Ali or Frazier. Maybe he's changes his views to promote the fighter who needs uplifting, perhaps in this case Frazier with respect to his recent financial shortcomings. Don Dunphy, Angelo Dundee and Gil Glancy all mentioned at one time that only a fighter like Joe Frazier would be able to pressure the fastest heavyweight on foot in Ali for as many rounds as he did in their trilogy of fights. In no way shape or form am I discrediting nor disrespecting Marciano's stamina because he's one of the GOAT heavyweight champions, some say THE greatest simply based on the fact that nobody has been able to put a loss on Marciano's record. Charley Goldman had Marciano throw hooks with both hands starting as low as possible, working up to the top, on the heavy bag for sometimes three or more full rounds. Mimimum number of hooks in each hand is six. I've tried that at the gym and barely got through one round without my arms falling off. This takes some serious stamina. Joe Frazier however, was a different type of pressure fighter than Marciano. There's no denying the fact that Frazier's right hand is nowhere near Marciano's, but to say Frazier had NO right hand is wrong. I'm sure Ali, Quarry, Ellis, Bugner and others who fought Frazier would all agree that his right hand is no pitty pat punch. Marciano was a great inside fighter but he fought more on the outside than Frazier, who used his feet more than Marciano to stay inside. Like I said before, Marciano was not as fast on foot as Frazier and couldn't exude the same pace as Frazier over 15 rounds. Punch output is a different story because both fighters have had their share of rounds where their punch output is less, earlier in the fight and later in the fight.
Never as simple as that in boxing. Ali also had 2 hands, more speed, loads of workrate/reach, good power, skill etc etc. Frazier's reliance on 1 hand seems like a weakness until you realise how much variety, speed, power, technique, timing, workrate he had in that 1 hand. His right hand isn't bad but that left is godly BTW I wouldn't say Marciano's chin is more proven than Frazier's. Marciano hasnt fought a relentless puncher like Foreman. That aside both showed impressive durability I go with Frazier because he was more relentless, faster and bigger. It would be a pure backburner though
By badly, I mean Rocky's face would be a hideous MESS and he would have down several times. Have you ever seen Chuvalo's face after he spent 9 minutes and 16 seconds in the company of Frazier's left hook? A photo of Chuvalo's face immediately after the fight was once up on Ebay. It was GRUESOME. Did you see Quarry's face after going seven rounds with Frazier? I only bring those gentlemen's names up NOT because I think they are Rocky's equal, but because I think Frazier would have ultimately done to Rocky what he did to them. (I do suspect Quarry would have represented well against Rocky before being stopped) As far as conjecture as to why Frazier would win, that ground has been covered over and over on this thread, there is no need to repeat what myself and others have said. Hey, Marciano was a true great. I respect his accomplishments. The Frazier of '67-71 would simply have been too much for him.
Rock never fought any one in thier prime that was great. Joe did. He fought tougher opponents than the Rock and that is why I think Joe would win.