And far more people have said that Marciano was the best conditioned heavyweight. Want to tally up what the experts have said rather than one guy? Pacheco also said that if Marciano hit you flush you went down. I don't doubt that he's boosting Frazier to prop Ali up. He loves Ali and would love to heighten his legacy even more if he can. Okay, we went over this. Just because Frazier has the better footspeed doesn't mean he has better stamina. This isn't as relevent in a Marciano v Frazier matchup as it is with an Ali v Frazier matchup. Of course you are because you insist that Frazier had better stamina because of what one doctor said rather than all the experts and all the film. You're holding on to footspeed and bobbing & weaving. All at the same time underrating Marciano's defense and head movement. They fought out of different styles, yes. Frazier was more pressuring and maybe exudes a higher past with pressuring in on fighters. However, he doesn't have anywhere near (There I said it) the stamina Marciano possessed nor could he out-punch with Marciano. And his output on film doesn't verify your claim. But keep holding on to things like "closing the gap" and "footspeed." As if Marciano being faster on his feet would actually tire him out . This is a Marciano v Frazier matchup.... remember that. I feel like we're going backwards. We already established that he's a different type of pressure fighter. Frazier's right hand was primarily used against the body. Obviously he didn't have NO right hand otherwise they made have chopped it off. But it wasn't significant in throwing any deadly fire at opponenents. It was usually used to set up that left hook. I'd like to see if he KOed anybody somewhat durable with that right hand. I love how you try almost cherry picking their strengths and weaknesses compared to each other. Marciano couldn't stalk opponents as fast as Frazier. This is true. However, Marciano had better stamina and could throw far more punches in a 15 round than Frazier (And has). This much is basically a fact. Frazier being faster on his feet isn't something that's a major detriment to tire him if Marciano was a little lighter on his feet. Even as a baseball player, Marciano was just never fast (Same goes for boxing I guess which makes sense). But the way you make it sound is that Marciano can't exude that pace. Yes he can't stalk an Ali who would dance as fast as Frazier. However, Frazier can't exude the punch pace Marciano did against Moore or Charles. And in a Frazier v Marciano fight "stalking intensity" isn't much relevant.
You're talking about the straight upright Chuvalo... right? cool A good defensive counter puncher, but another fairly upright fighter that Joe can left hook bang at. And two guys who arguably cut & bleed worse than Rocky. Frazier does the seem and not because their equals? Well then is it a style thing? I see Marciano with that advantage probably. But explain why since Rocky isn't equals to Quarry or Chuvalo. I don't remember you covering much ground. I guess I get lost within a the posts/posters. Right, if you posted back that's cool but if you haven't then you offer little real reason to why. So you think Frazier would TKO Marciano from cuts? He drops Marciano a couple times but doesn't Bonevena. He beats Rocky but Bonavena takes him the distance twice under the same Goldman (All while dropping him twice in 1 round), all while being the much worse fighter than Rocky. Now, he drops Marciano when Frazier didn't drop Quarry in 69 and basically tried out-slugging Frazier. All while Quarry tried out-slugging him, a Marciano who hits much harder and fights low and has much better stamina gets dropped and loses in a similiar or worse fashion? Marciano has a better two fisted attack than Frazier. He has better stamina, and he is more durable. Moore caught him with a looping right that Marciano was already off balance for and didn't see. Rocky got up at 2, and Moore is rated #4 puncher according to Ring Magazine. Marciano got up at 3 against Walcott who used the same left hook that took Charles head off. Marciano said about the Walcott punch, "I wasn't hurt, I wasn't even dazed." Frazier got dropped by a big right against Bonvena but then downed against after basically being hit and pushed. He was seriously that hurt. Marciano was arguably not hurt from either knockdowns and both were debatedly flash knockdowns. Frazier was a little hurt and backed up by the soft hitting Bugner. Ron Standler stunned Frazier and had Joe reeling backwards and Ali definitely hurt him, backing him up in FOTC. And let's not even bring up Foreman dropping him 100 times. If Marciano keeps at it low which he does upon his attack and keeps Joe's left out of it I see Joe without very little chance. Either way, I feel he can take his left if he has to and exchange with Frazier wouldn't be a problem. Marciano can be the accumulation puncher and be the 1 punch KO artist.
Frazier was still green when Bonavena dropped him. Frazier was also past his prime when Stander and Bugner stunned him. You can't really fault Frazier for getting hurt by Ali. I am pretty sure Marciano would be hurt by Ali as well. You think Marciano beats Frazier if he stays low? Possibly, but you have to remember gets just as low and offers much better head movement. I feel that Marciano is going to have to time Frazier as his handspeed is not going to catch him. Though Marciano has a better two fisted attack, Frazier's is not to be dismissed. His right is actually pretty powerful and has stunned plenty of fighters with it before hitting them with the left hook. Marciano has little chance to one punch Frazier. Foreman couldn't keep him down and neither would The Rock. Whenit come to power, they aren't as far apart as you think. Frazier would land one left hook on Ali and it would stun him bad, forcing him to hold; Ali was known for a great chin. Frazier offered better pressure than Rocky and came forward more. Frazier's pace was simply better than Rocky; for example, the constant head movement, and never backing up. Marciano never applied the same kind of steady pressure that Frazier did. Marciano had the tendency to back up at times and Frazier didn't except for the Foreman fight. No fighter except Foreman could back Frazier up.
Dempsey/Louis was always my dream fight I think Marciano/Ali would be up there....Dempsey/Frazier would be an action packed war with Early Fireworks.....Lewis/Foreman would be of interest....Tyson/Liston in a war of the Bullies
Chin is chin. Prime, green, all this doesn't really matter. All it says it that the fighters would be more prone to maybe getting hit. And a Frazier of 73 is experienced, maybe not quite peak though. It's a different head movement, and I do believe Frazier gets as low as Marciano does. Marciano crouch allows him to play from all heights and angles. Frazier's bob & weave is just a little bent down/forward. I agree. Marciano's timing is fairly good. He has to be able to do this, just like he had to against every other fighter. Frazier's right has never KOed or knocked down anyone from memory. It's not useless, but it's mostly used to body punch and set up the left hook. Ray Mancini said "he never seen Joe use the right to the head." Obviously an exaggeration, but it's a point that's partly true. I've seen him stun Quarry with it in 69. And he used it a little in the III Ali fight. Never said he would. Just think he has slightly better 1 punch KO power. Of course it would help him to knock down Frazier. He doesn't KO Frazier... nobody KO's Frazier. Where do I start. Frazier hit Ali many times with that left hook in FOTC and Ali took it. Sure he got stunned and hard a bit but he took a lot of great shots. Marciano's chin is comparably and arguably superior than Ali's. Rocky only really went backwards to slip punches, he always really went forward. Truth is Frazier was and has been forced backwards more. Foreman had him going backwards, Ali had him going backwards, Bugner and Quarry had him on the ropes, Stander had him reeling backwards into the ropes. Can't remember anything comparable happening to Marciano. Granted some bigger guys and a bigger puncher in Foreman than anything Marciano ever faced. Marciano moved his head more than people seem to think. It wasn't as constant but he did it with purpose while being low. You can argue that Marciano's getting so low is equally as strenious as constant bobing & weaving. Both non-suprisingly had bad backs in their careers and afterwards. Frazier came forward faster, not more. What does constant head work really have to do with pace? It's just a different style of fighting. Marciano could pressure just as much (55 Version. Rocky vs Archie) and threw more punches. ... Not true.
I agree, Marciano had 2 hands and not one...Frazier was tough but Im afraid he would walk into one of Rocky's bombs...it could be later but may be sooner...Frazier had heart and would bounce up as much as he could...but may take a count in this one.
Ideally, Frazier should have retired after the FOTC. Imagine his place in the annals of boxing greats.
Plenty of them. Most will say he was of the 15 round fighters (Some protest that the fighters like Jeffries that fought 15+ were because they did). Everybody talks about Marciano's unbelievable dedication/determination and training. I'm not sure how many clear cut "best conditioned heavyweight" I can get as far as quotes but most talk about his terrific conditioning and that he trained the most of any HW champion. You make it seem like Joe Frazier is running and Marciano is a slug. Joe Frazier has faster footspeed, but this is really just a natural quality he has that's better than Marciano (In regards to footspeed). And footspeed is very hardly revelant to stamina in the very grand scheme. Seriously, if Marciano was faster moving with his feet moving forward it would have an insignifcant bearing on his punch output in my honest opinion. Bobbing & weaving takes a lot of tiring, but it's something that Frazier doesn't have to do once he is completely inside squishing his opponents, and Frazier fought like this often because he got inside a lot. Getting low like Marciano does is very strenous too. I've done both, they are both tiring. Arguably, it's Marciano who depends on moving forward and getting low more often because he doesn't close the gap as good so he quite possibly exerts himself more since Frazier can just pressure his fighter inside to the point where his bobbing & weaving isn't needed. Cool. Marciano fought low and rolled and weaved and used head movement that way. I'm only go that far because I feel Marciano's stamina is noticeably superior. It seems to me people are over-factoring his constant bob & weave and slightly faster footspeed. The fact is Marciano moved his head a lot and got really low out of his crouch. Do you know how strenious this is to your back? You're the one undestimating Marciano's head movement and style in terms of stamina depletion. Try getting low and fighting out of crouch. "Very little head-movement says it all." Complete and utter biasedness. I admit it's not as constant but it's there. Once Frazier swarms his opponenet leaving them with no breathing room his footspeed and bobbing aren't being used. Marciano has to stalk more and more being slower, and is always getting low and rolling his stomach. The less-swarmy fighter might be the fighter who actually requires more stamina when you factor all that. And besides, it's a known given that sluggers tire out easily... not Rocky who's throwing every punch with bad intentions, something Frazier didn't do. And you're not factoring in once Frazier has his opponents there with zero room how he doesn't need to use footspeed or weaving half as much. A slower fighter who has to get inside and keep moving from more of a fight and has to keep getting low and rolling under that crouch exudes plenty of stamina. And you are also not factoring how Marciano throw every punch like a bomb. Frazier doesn't do this.