Marciano vs Frazier

Right, and so what? Did you understand my point? I get that he was green at the time, but that doesn't take away the main point of Frazier's durability which was you originally responded to.

I'll give you this. Frazier is better defensively and does have a better slip/duck ratio. But note that Marciano is more deceivingly difficult to hit than he appears. Jersey Joe and Moore were surprised by this. Frazier is also vulnerable to the uppercut.

His right hand wasn't useless, but it certainly wouldn't play a major role in hurting Marciano. Just like the other fighters, he sets up with it (I've only seen him stun Quarry with his right to the head).

I think the opposite is true. And some of these big guys were really just "fat" or even smaller than Frazier (Quarry had him on the ropes).

Proof is in the pudding.

You'd be surprised. As for an ATG who didn't move his head much... Joe Louis.

In general, yes. In this matchup I don't think so.

Explain. Nobody is going to be dancing or running. It's going to be probably toe to toe. And yes, I know Frazier likes to use angles to attack as does Marciano like to get low and attack from all angles. However, Frazier does this to hurt opponents on the ropes usually. The thing is, in a slugfest (Whether it's a swarming contest or patient slug-war) footspeed isn't going to matter much.

Footspeed isn't a factor here. Handspeed should help him a bit. Head movement might be detrimental against him in this one. Being a rythm fighter against a fighter who's capable of throwing tons and tons of punches can be a bad thing. Even if it's the patient, calculated slugger version of Marciano he rocks him with 1 shot and all of a sudden that head-movement is slowing down and Joe's staggering. I feel Joe's up and down head movement leaves him vulnerable to Marciano's uppercut and Marciano's coming from low and up attack. Howard Cossel mentions in the 69 Quarry fight how Joe is "vulnerable to that right." Quarry taggs him with it, imagine if Marciano lands just one his Suzie Q's.

In contrast, Marciano gets low out of that crouch. Joe likes to leap at range and catch with that left hook. But if Rocky is down it will be very difficult for Joe to do this. He'll have to be punching down/low. Rocky will roll out of that crouch, I feel it's the people who are straight and upright become most vulnerable to that launching left hook.

[quotePace has a lot to do with overall movement and punches. Marciano just doesn't apply the same steady pressure, pure and simple. [/quote]

Joe's head movement is mostly designed to dodge compact hooks and jabs. Marciano punches from everyway and from all angles. His up and down rythm head movement won't be enough. Moore's shielding and turning (Kind of wish washy) is a more effective head movement. The up & down bob/weave is something could be a stylistic problem against Marciano.






Has any fighter ever consistantly backed Frazier up for a whole fight, like Holyfield did to Tyson for example?[/quote]

 

A left hook.

Walcott was far more craftier and tricky than Frazier. It was also off the break, in which Marciano was upright and coming in... and it was also the same type of power that flattened Charles. Something like that wouldn't have happened in the way that it did with Walcott against Marciano in that punch.

What kind of punch was it that put Joe down in the first Bonavena fight?

 

Very well said BummyDavis. I love that feint with the right, jab and double hook against Mathews. Oh that was such a beautiful move. Mathews didn't know what hit him. LoL. I also like the two against Moore leaving Moore helpless, he really did escape by being saved by the bell in the 6th and 8th (I believe it was 8th). You really keyed on a big point. Frazier has never seen such an powerful arsenal of offense bearing Foreman who never had the stamina to go the distance if needed or if Frazier happened to survive those blows. Marciano would just be bombing, and his timing, patience, and low crouch defense/attacking from all angles would be very troubling. The bob & weave up and down head movement would be suspectible to Marciano's attacks in my honest opinion. I truly believe it's the crafty, classic, technical boxers (Once great on their feet) that have a good inside and out game that give Marciano the most trouble - not the swarmers/sluggers (Bearing obvious exceptions). In this case Frazier would be incredibly tough and a war, obviously, but Rocky could very well end it quicker rather than versus the crafty and great classic boxers. If it's someone that goes straight at Rocky, he's probably going to lose (With Foreman as an exception. Also Liston and Tyson as likely exceptions).

As for Walcott, I always believed he had underrated 1 punch power. His sanddancing and moving and unpredictable attack could spell trouble for loads of fighters. Too bad he had mismanagement but he was also a late bloomer. He dropped Louis twice with his sanddancing and snapping out to attack. He really pummeled Charles with that hook uppercut shot. Bad era to be in (Between Louis and Marciano) but I believe he beat Louis in 48 (Like most do).

 

Of course not. But it was only the tricky "catch off guard" shots that ever put Rocky down. With Frazier he would know what he was after. Joe lands those left hooks when fighters retreat. Marciano doesn't retreat, and if Joe swarms he won't have room to land. Besides Marciano is down low and every fighter Joe fights is basically upright. That left hook probably won't find. Either way, Marciano takes it and dishes it back via late TKO.

Better offense arsenal, power, stamina, and durability. How about that Bonvena shot that brought Frazier down and had him staggering around trying to stay up and not lose due to the via 3 knockdown rule :yep :bbb

 

Fine, but what makes Joe not in this matchup?

That film shows Frazier backing up more than Marciano.

You said every fighter moves their head and it is apart of boxing. Joe Louis rarely moved his head. That's an ATG top 10 fighter of all time. Your comment on that was really intended to discredit Marciano's head-movement. But it didn't work (I guess).

So you're a complete non-believer in styles making fights? So we can just analyze their attributes without taking it chance how they fight and how that might be an advantage against so and so. Head-movement is different, and there's all different ways to do it. Simplistically, it's good to move your head. However, in a Frazier v Marciano matchup I think Frazier's up and down bobbing & weaving would leave him vulnerable for Marciano's attacks. Why? I think this because Marciano can get very low in his crouch and pounce to attack upwards from all angles. Frazier's bending his back and bobbing & weaving up and down leaves him low and small against most fighters of his era. Most of those fighters were upright targets punching down. Generally, tall guys trying to hook at this target could miss. Frazier was great at slipping jabs/hooks. But Marciano coming in from a lower attack position (Potentially) and punching upward at all angles would be so unconventional and threatening for Frazier I don't see how he could deal with it (If it came to that). Marciano having Frazier hurt, and then throwing all downwards at him would be bad to. Frazier was great at dodging short compact hooks, and jabs. Ironically, the fighters who punched all over and weren't the best technical punchers landed a lot and hurt Frazier (Bonavena and Foreman). Foreman power is low and that uppercut was something Frazier is vulnerable to. Another last reason why I feel that his bobbing & weaving against an even lower (Key word lower) target that's coming out and throwing from all angles just wouldn't be entirely effective in this fantasy matchup. Marciano being low also could take away from the power in Joe's leaping left hook.

When Joe swarms he only uses angles once his target is stationary. A target that's always there to dish it back out what give him oppourtinity to work at angles. Granted, Joe works at angles when he's boxing in and out and trying to find his pace and rythm. But, I may be underestimating foot speed and it's potential in that matchup. Fair point.

Why most important? Ali clearly didn't have the timing and clearly wasn't at his peak from prior to getting stripped of his license. Not to try taking away from Joe's win but Ali wasn't there and the 1974 version against Joe is arguably better. It's a terrific win and a win that puts Joe in my top 5 HW of all time (Yea, much higher than most) however I don't consider it the most important of the three. I'd say the Thrilla in Manilla was because it was 2 past their primes champs going all at it. Frazier arguably peaked for that FOTC fight. Ali wasn't all there.

Right, he should be smart to avoid it. But can and will he? I find the rythm up and down bob & weave leaves him slightly vulnerable. He wasn't setup for Bonavena's big right and that nearly won him the fight. I don't think Marciano's one punch KOing Frazier. I don't think he'll 1 punch knockdown Frazier, although I wouldn't be suprised. However, if Marciano's out there throwing a lot one of his punches from his combos, one of them could land. Frazier can't afford costly big blows in these exchanges. He has to be very smart and very great defensively. It's a tough task for both.

Partly true. But he won't have the leverage off the ground as he's coming down. And don't be suprised to see Marciano roll out of his crouch out of the way.

Obviously it's designed to dodge all punches. But all systems have flaws. He was vulnerable to the uppercut and sometimes the right. He was best at dodge/slipping the jab. It's simple logic to know that an up and down bob & weave would be good at dodging straight or parralel shots - anything coming from an angle below parralel to the floor would be a shot more likely to land and or glancing shot.

Now Tyson's bob & weave in my honest opinion is more effective at slipping more varations of punches. Well, I think he mastered it to the point of slipping uppercuts and hooks much better. All variance have their pros/cons I suppose nothing is perfect. But don't overestimate Frazier's ability to dodge all punches equally.

 

Switch that statement if you wish. And if Foreman is your answer to dispute that then just watch the result (Not saying that's how Rocky v Joe happens). The next aggressive fighter was Bonavena and he almost beat Joe in the first fight. Yes yes, Joe was green but his durability is highly in more question.

And Burt Sugar says that a wall could drop on Marciano and he would keep going. What does that mean?

It also depends on who your boxing. In Frazier's 12th pro bout he was fighting Oscar Bonavena, Rocky was fighting 1-4 Gilley Ferron. The average opponents record that Rocky fought was 30-10.5, Joe fought 25.4-5.35.

Frazier fought much bigger opponents too and that would play a part in this also.

Only 6 of Joe’s opponents were less then 190 pounds, last being Bob Foster, and 20 were over 200 pounds. Rocky fought 25 opponents that weighed under 190 pounds and only 11 of them weighed over 200 pounds.[/quote]

Yet all recordings show he had less trouble with bigger fighters. Scrap Ali of Joe's resume and his best wins are against Quarry, Bonavena, and Ellis. Marciano gets so much scrap for facing blown up light heavies/middleweights, well that's exactly what Ellis was except he wasn't as skilled nor as durable as Charles or Walcott. Take Ali's name off and look at the context and compare their resumes and Marciano's is arguably superior.

Also, consistently most of the opposition weren't much bigger. And if they were, they certainly weren't fit or trim. Remember, Marciano was small for his era and steamrolled most guys. And the bigger men comment doesn't prove all too much except maybe pushing around the ring. Joe got hurt against softer hitting fighters and more frequently than Marciano. Bonavena is one of the exceptions and he almost had Joe down 3 times. Walcott is underrated in terms of power, and his shot was probably equal to Bonavena's right... the difference is Rocky has the better chin.

By the way, do you think Joe Frazier hits harder than Joe Louis? Just curious...