I was talking about Frazier himself. Rocky never fought anyone like him. I know Bert pretty well and I asked him why he rates Rocky so high (#6) and he told me because of his record. He said if the judges voted against him on either the Lowry or LaStarza bout, he wouldn't be in his top 10. Although I think Walcott did punch pretty good, I would have to give the edge to Bonavena. Oscar had 44 KO's in his 58 wins and 68 bouts. Walcott had 32 KO's in his 51 wins and 71 bouts. If you watch the Bonavena/Chuvalo fight, you will see that George was lucky not to get a knockdown called against him. As far as Louis goes, he had a GREAT punch and was even voted by Ring Magazine as the best puncher ever. It would be hard to disagree with that.
The thing that you always seem to forget is that there was bigger fighters at the time but most of them were beaten by the smaller better men. Moore stopped Bob Baker 6"2 and beat 6"3 Valdez 2 times, Walcott, Charles Ko'd Coley Wallace who was 6"3 210 and Lastaza beat 6"2 Dan Bucceroni...Bob Satterfield Ko'd 6"3 Big Cat Williams in 3 but was Ko'd by Charles in 2 and Moore stopped him as well. Marciano beat big guys in his career but the important issue is he beat the best. Do you think he should have fought the big guys that lost or the smaller men who won...6 title defences 5 against # 1 contender...not bad
Neither did Frazier. And neither do most fighters in H2H matchups... that's why it's called a fantasy matchup after all. I'm not really too big on Bert. The quote was to make a point as to say who cares what Nat Fleisher says. Tons of people says tons of different things. Teddy Atlas said Marciano would beat Frazier. I respect Atlas a lot. Speaking of Atlas, he knows far more about Marciano and his subtle defensive maneuvers. Bert Sugar said Marciano was a -12 on the ricter scale in terms of skill. He also had Jack Dempsey rated number #1 up until the 90's until he decided to "listen." LoL the guy is quite the character and an good boxing historian, but he definitely lets inconsistencies, double standards, and bias get in the way. Peter Marciano said that if Marciano didn't get duducted a point he believes the LaStarza fight would've been a UD (Obviously a biased source). I think Walcott's left hook uppercut is comparably to Bonavena's best punch. I also believe that Jersey's crafty and trickyiness allows him to catch you more off guard making his punches even more lethal (But that's not significant in regards to making his punch that much less or more). In general, though, I agree Bonavena was more powerful and punched harder. Yep, and Moore was rated #4.
I never said it was! I only think that Frazier was better, you think Marciano was. Here's a list of all the contenders of Rocky's era when he was Champion. The ones in BOLD is who he fought. I included their career record. I also included their highest annual end of the year rating. 1. Jersey Joe Walcott (1) – 6’0” – 197 – (51-18-2) 2. Archie Moore (1) – 5’11” – 188 – (185-23-11) 3. Nino Valdez (1) - 6’3” – 210 – (48-19-2) 4. Ezzard Charles (2) – 6”0” – 190 – (89-25-1) 5. Don Cockell (2) – 5’11” – 205 – (65-14-1) 6. Rex Layne (2) – 6’1” – 193 – (50-17-3) 7. Bob Baker (2) - 6’2” – 215 – (51-16-1) 8. Dan Bucceroni (3) - 6’2” – 190 – (46-6) 9. Tommy Jackson (3)- 6' 3½” – 195 – (34-9-1) 10. Roland LaStarza (4) – 6’0” – 185 – (57-9) 11. John Holman (4) - 6’3” – 205 (27-17-1) 12. Bob Dunlop (4) – 182 _ (30-13-1) 13. Clarence Henry (5) - 6’1” – 185 – (34-6-1) 14. Earl Walls (5) - 6'2½” – 192 – (34-9-1) 15. Willie Pastrano (5) – 6’0” – 175 – (63-13-8) 16. Johnny Williams (6) – 195 – (60-11-4) 17. Heinz Neuhaus (6) – 6’2” – 212 (43-9-7) 18. Johnny Summerlin (7) – 6’1” – 195 – (35-8-2) 19. Tommy Harrison (8) – 182 – (22-13-2) 20. Bob Satterfield (8) – 6’2” – 185 – (50-25-4) 21. Karel Sys (9) – 5’11” – 210 – (114-17-10) 22. Charley Norkus (9) – 6’0” – 195 – (33-19) 23. Young Jack Johnson (9) – 6’3” – 208 – (24-20-1) 24. Jimmy Bivins (10) – 5’9” – 185 – (86-25-1) 25. Coley Wallace (10) – 6’2” – 205 – (20-7) 26. Jimmy Slade (10) – 180 – (36-23-6) Others that were rated during that time were: 1. Paul Andrews – 6’3” – 180 – (37-10) 2. Bill Gilliam – 6’2” – 210 - (30-20-2) 3. James J. Parker – 6’3” – 210 - (30-7-4-) 4. Franco Cavicchi – 202 – (71-14-4) 5. Cesar Brion - 6'2½” – 202 – (32-7-4)
Frazier fought far more Big Time hitters then Rocky did. You really can not count Louis, as I said before, he only had 3 KO's in his last 9 bouts before facing Rocky. The biggest punchers Rocky fought was Moore and most likely Walcott and both of them put him on the canvas BUT he did get up and stopped them both. Moore and Walcott were both 38 years old at the time. In their 2nd bout LaStarza was actually winning until he blocked a punch and injuryed his arm, and that changed the hold fight. An Interview with Roland LaStarza On fighting Rocky Marciano: "I won the first fight. Everyone thought I won the first fight except the referee. One judge scored it for me, the ref and the other judge gave it to Marciano. All the newspaper guys gave me the decision. "The second fight, ruined me. It was easy at first. Then in maybe the sixth round I blocked a punch with my left arm and my left was gone. I blocked one of his right hands and that was it. I hurt that arm in training and when I blocked that punch I damaged blood vessels in my arm. I stood there and took a beating until the 11th. "If I had one word to describe Rocky it would be relentless. I would throw a right hand, he would throw a right hand. But the difference was Rocky would throw 10. He didn't hit me the hardest, but he hit me the most often. Don't get me wrong, Rocky was a great fighter. He was tough and he never stopped throwing punches." Here's Atlas all-time list: </span> Well, at least we agree on something!
At this stage I want names. Frazier had trouble with any fighter that really packed somewhat of a punch. He fought a lot of very strong guys like Chuvalo and such but he didn't face many big time hitters. And when he did as such against Foreman he was destroyed and or had trouble. ? Would actually like to see Atlas all-time list. Very curious. As for the post before about the records. One thing I would say is it's better to post records till the point of when the fighters met. Marciano nearly ruined LaStarza's career and Ezzard was never the same after those brutal rounds. Moore was very dominant up until and somewhat after that point.
George Chuvalo, Oscar Bonavena, Bob Foster & Jerry Quarry, all of them were big punchers, and he stopped them all. Charles lost to Valdez and Johnson and really wasn't the same fighter since he was stopped by Walcott. LaStarza, a lot of people thought won their 1st bout. In their 2nd, he hurt his arm when he blocked a punch. He also lost to 14-8-2 Rocky Jones the year before he fought Rocky the 2nd time. Tony Atlas: 1. Sugar Ray Robinson 2. Henry Armstrong 3. Muhammad Ali 4. Benny Leonard 5. Sam Langford 6. Harry Greb 7. Mickey Walker 8. Roberto Duran 9. Gene Tunney 10. Carlos Monzon 10a. Joe Louis [FONT="] [/FONT]
Lastarza also beat every man that beat him except Marciano at that point he was 53-3 and had beaten every man that beat him except Rocky
Moore and Walcott are better punches than Quarry. Foster had durability issues and was seen as not even having a punchers chance against Frazier. I also think Moore and Walcott are clearly the better punches, as was an old Joe Louis. Chuvalo was a very very strong but he didn't possess impressive power, nor anywhere near the skills or offense of a Walcott, Charles, LaStarza, or Moore. Furthermore, I think Moore was a better puncher, and I do believe that Walcott had equal if not probably better 1 punch power. Bovena in terms of consistent power wins. But he was knocked down against Frazier and basically hit and then pushed to be dropped again. Frazier luckily survived and didn't have the 3 place knockdown rule in effect. Marciano's far better than Bonevena in virtually every way. This is a strong reason to why I think Marciano faires well in this kind of matchup. [FONT="] [/FONT]That's a solid list. Tony? I think you mean Teddy. I was hoping you had his heavyweight top 10 list :-(( [FONT="] [/FONT]
Stats are great but lets include that everyone of those big men you mentioned was beaten by Moore,Lastarza,Charles, or Walcott or Bob Satterfield (who was KO'd in 2 by Charles......What is your point that Rocky beat the BEST or the Biggest...The Biggest were not the best
Everyone of those Big men were beaten by one of the guys Rocky fought..Charles beat Gilliam,Wallace.Satterfield, Layne.....Moore beat Baker, Valdes 2 times, Satterfield,Parker,Clarence Henry,Slade Lastaza beat Bucceroni and Cesar Brion and Walcott beat Elmer Ray and Bivens....to name a few.....
I agree, BUT like I stated before, knockouts come from speed and timing and Louis lost that. Also, in Walcott's last 17 bouts before he faced Rocky, he only stopped 5 opponents. Charles did a little better by Knocking out 7 of his last 15. Louis only stopped 3 out of his last 9.
Your 100% correct! All I am saying is that during Ali's time, the contenders didn't fight each other, Ali fought them all. Hey, I think Rocky was Great, BUT I also think Frazier was a little Greater.