Should Dundee have done more...

Yes and no. I think he got caught up in the galore of things. He couldn't convince Ali so he would be there for him. I think he should have seriously done more to try convincing him against Berbick but his logic is "I know he will so I'll be there with him." Nothing wrong. I've heard him speak of some Basilio fights and I know he cares deeply for his fighters (Usually). Should've stopped the Holmes fight earlier but at least he gave a lot to get it stopped. With Ali you never know what magic trick he was going to pull. They later learned off what the pills were doing to dry him up. Angie didn't know why his fighter wasn't throwing - thought he could have had something stored up. Plus, Dundee knew Holmes.

 

Most likely the answer is yes. Like everyone else, I sure wish Ali had retired immediately after Manila.

Dundee did seem to care about his fighters. He definitely did the right thing by not sending Jimmy Ellis out for the 5th against Frazier.

 

I have mixed feelings on this...

On one side, I understand the idea of Dundee sticking with Ali so, at least, he could look after him. But on the other side, you can also say that Dundee should just quit to show Ali that it was serious and that he was not going to be a "yes man" to Ali's madness.

Anyway, the ultimate judge of Dundee's actions is Dundee himself. He knows if he did right or not.

By the way... was'nt Dundee the guy screaming "STOP IT!! STOP IT!!!!" during Foreman-Frazier?

Isn't kind of weird that a guy who was so worried for Joe's health, had to wait for so long to get the fight stopped in Ali-Holmes?

 

Yes and no. Alli wasn't in as immediate trouble. He was yelling at Ali to get active and just give his fighters a lot of chances. I'd imagine it would be very tough for him to give up on him so soon, seeing as they been through so much.

With Foreman-Frazier you're right. But I do think that maybe someone in Dundee's position would want them to stop the fight... might be in his best interest to not have to deal with Frazier. Then again, popular opinion was (Afterwards at least) that Foreman was far more dangerous. I'm probably over-analyzing. Dundee did care. He had to yell to the ref continuously "I'm Stopping it... I'm in charge!" for the Holmes fight.

 

Yes. Pacheco, for all his hot air, did the right thing by quitting the camp when he knew Ali had little left.

 

Yes, but the man who really should have put his foot down is his manager, Herbert Muhammad, the only person Ali would have heeded.

Having been commissioned by his father, the Honorable Elijah Muhammad, to guide Ali spiritually, Herbert was closest to what made Ali tick, i.e., his sense of mission as an ambassador for Allah.

Personally, I feel Herbert cared about Ali, but his view of things was too religiously skewed to allow him to see the plain worldly fact that Ali was finished as a top athlete.

As for Dundee, I agree, he should have done a Pacheco, but that is easier said than done. He did not have a physician's vantage point and Ali always looked horrible in sparring -yet he always managed to pull the rabbit out of the hat upon showtime.

You just didn't give up so easily on a guy like Ali. He had done the impossible time and again, quoting Bert Sugar, having tied with Moses for the most miracles by a mortal, at two apiece. But no one knew that by this time he was a sick man.

And as for the Thomas screaming fit, to me this was vintage Dundee, sticking up for his fighter tooth and nail. Dundee knew Thomas was in the fight and steadfastly rejected the notion that Pinky should be halted so early. This was leadership from the corner and Thomas gave us a good fight that night against a heavyweight titan near his peak.

 

Ali should have quit for his own sake.
Can't blame Dundee for going along for the ride.

 

Didn't Dundee encourage him to go on?

 

I dont know but it seems very possible.

 

Herbert Muhammad may have been the only man that Ali would have listened to. Herbert though was mainly interested in Ali the 'cash cow'

 

pacheco left when it was too late.he's just as guilty as the others