Marciano vs Frazier

I'm not sure if I'm even going to respond to hegrants post. For now, I shall post something else. The more and more research I do the more it seems his chin is slightly overrated.

In Frazier's second fight he was down against Mike Bruce for an 8 count in round 1. Mike Bruce was a nobody bum http://www.boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=16110&cat=boxer

Now, I'll take Marciano going down for a 3 count against an ATG Heavyweight that floored Joe Louis 3 times versus Frazier who got knocked down by a guy who had 10 wins and 30 loses in his career. Face it, Joe's durability was majorly exposed by Foreman and his chin is overrated. When people are under the impression that Frazier has a better chin than Marciano, either Marciano's chin gets underrated or Frazier chin gets a little overrated. Take your pick.

It's starting to become more clear. Marciano takes this one with more and more thinking.

 

I know you aren't asking me. But I have Marciano #3 and I have Frazier #5. Both top 5's for me.

 

Phew, not even top 20 H2H? That's harsh. I haven't made an H2H list but my Top 10-15 list is non-bearing of H2H because I can't exactly speculate or prove that he beats him and such. All I can do is view their own greatness comparably to the others. I have a criteria for it, though, that I feel is fair.

I leave emotion out of my criteria too. I wonder how you come to grips believing Frazier had the superior chin and more balanced power. Guess we will have to just agree to disagree. If we can't even agree on their assets/disadvantages then we can't analyze the fantasy matchup properly.

And I feel I'm at a fine position questioning your objectivity. I really found your white champion post to be semi-insulting/ridiculous. Marciano will always have his detractors and will always have his skills underrated - even big time historians will misunderstand and mis-represent him from time time. A lot people appreciate him for the toughness, heart, and hard work. That's enough respect I guess, but as that undefeated 49-0 fighter he will always be looked down upon and looked as fighting in a weak era and having a weak resume. Partly true, mostly fiction, usually exaggerated.

 

LoL sorry. I'm getting way way lost in all these posts/posters. My bad.

As for Rocky and his chin. I would say his fight with Jersey Joe (The first one) displays his chin. Hopefully you can watch or pick up a good quality version. The fight is on youtube. I have ESPN RIngside Top 10 Heavyweights (Pretty good buy) and the announcer for the fight talked about the fight and how Jersey was a good heavyweight. He said he thought Rocky took such a beating in the 12th round that he wouldn't come out for the 13th. I would also check out the Louis v Marciano fight. Yes, it's an old Louis and he doesn't have the same reflexes, timing, or speed but power is the last thing to go and catches Marciano coming in a bit. The LaStarza II is a good one to check Rocky just go forward and take shots without being fazed, but LaStarza really wasn't a good or big puncher. I'd say your next best bet might be Rocky v Moore. Marciano shows some good toughness and recuperation. I do believe he gets dropped largely from being off balanced but he seemed to be slightly hurt. Towards the end you can see Marciano throwing bombs on Archie who is on the ropes and Archie occasionally throws punches back. You can see even in big exchanges Rocky using defense and head movement, you can also see him just take shots and keep coming without it fazing him. Pretty good stuff. I have the Moore fight... there's also a good 20 minute sectioned highlight of the fight on youtube. I could hook you up with links or something.

 

You get caught up way too much on facts and figures rather the context of things. Walcott had a lot of wars and fights with good fighters. He fought mostly Louis, Charles, Ray, and Maxim. Most he won, and he lost the Louis fight to a bad decision. Moore's fight against Patterson was one of his worst showing. He admit later in his life that it was his worst fight. Patterson was too fast and much for Moore either way but he would've faired better. Stylistically, it wasn't a great matchup either way. It was also one of Patterson's best performance. Got to factor these things in...

And the poster said Walcott was closer to his prime than Charles was, which is true.

 

Ah good call. That's good for the first few rounds to show Marciano's chin. Eventually Cockell tires and he just tries surviving. I don't think that fights on youtube though (Maybe a highlight). Probably didn't bring it up because it's one of Rocky's worst performances and Moore and Jersey Joe are much better opposition and better punchers.

Found the highlight, good commentating. Cockell survives some brutal shots. He becomes really bewildered. Highlights late rounds and just Marciano on the attack. Not much to show you his chin here, and it's a hard fight to find. You can read up on it I guess. But go with the Walcott I, Louis, and Moore fights. That will you enough.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8d9OoCj89ok