Manuel Ortiz Discussion Thread

just a bit of booze

thats the downfall of all scottish boxers. Thats why i wont drink till i stop boxing ill have an occasional dram though.

he qwould a knocked the **** out of Naz IMO

 

Another good Scottish fighter. British Commonwealth and European bantam weight champion. He threatened to throw Sonny Liston out of a widow once.

 

I can't say i'd take him over Naz personally, but who knows? You don't drink? That's a good thing considering you want to further your boxing career. Can't say i'll ever know how you feel though!

 

Haha, and he was a bantam?! What a guy.

 

**** your right forgot him

he would have KOd Liston haha out of a window classic

yep just a styles thing

i use to drink all the time good i stopped really when i was 12 i was a right wee ned. not drinkings good

 

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=...pa3KBQ&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6

 

Just read, haha, hilarious.

 

If anyone here is willing and able to upload footage onto youtube I will send that person copies of Ortiz/Castillo III and the Toweel highlight among others..... anyone want to take me up on my offer contact me via pm. As for Ortiz I`ve got a few stories to share about him that I will post here later tonight.

 

Thanks dude. looking foward to hearing them stories. someone get this footage uploaded. The poster Great A could be able to do it! pm him bull!

 

Here are a few stories about Manuel Ortiz told to me by boxing historian, writer, and expert on California boxing history Hap Navarro who was a good friend of Ortiz`s. I saved onto a wordpad document countless storys, thoughts and opinions which are a gold mine of boxing history on the West Coast he has shared with me over the years, below I will post the ones about Ortiz.


When Enrique Bolanos was on the rise, knocking every opponent out, he was matched against Ortiz at the Olympic. Manny kept it evenly close for about four rounds taking it easy on the younger fighter right up until Bolanos stung him with a pulverizing shot. Ortiz then suddenly went to work and the fight was over less than a minute later.

Another way the Olympic was unique was that on fight nights there was a popcorn peddler stationed at the corner of 18th and Grand, near one of the ticket windows, with a steam-driven whistle on his cart that told you the peanuts and popcorn were hotly fresh. I never could resist that guy even as a grown man, although I preferred to hit the beer bars inside as I grew older. Speedy Dado hawking his Knockouts was never far from that corner popcorn cart.

One fight night in the 1950s Manuel Ortiz and I were talking at one of the concession stands in the back of the arena when Art Aragon passed by carrying two cups of beer. He nodded to us, and bumped into Manuel slightly, almost spillng his beer on him. Ortiz was furious for a few seconds and yelled at Art to come back, but Aragon kept right on going, leaving Manuel in a huff for me to quiet down. Before continuing our conversation, Manuel mumbled "Golden Boy....hah!"


Manuel Ortiz was a bit of a riddle. He took his boxing career seriously only on a few occasions. When he did he was undoubtedly one of the best lighter men of all time. A master boxer who could lure an opponent into fierce exchanges which he usually won. The worst I ever saw him was in an Olympic match with Lauro Salas, terribly out of shape.

When Manny pealed off his robe the audience actually gasped at the layers of fat around his midsection. He weighed just under 135 pounds for that one and paid the price for his misstep.
Salas pounded him easily and repeatedly until Manny had to take a voluntary knock down to stop the onslaught. He fought back on guts alone and survived without getting floored again but lost a lopsided duke.

I remember that tears streamed down his cheeks as he realized how futile his efforts were against a well conditioned foe like Lauro. It was a sight, Rick, so much so that some of us at ringside kept pleading with Lauro to let up on Manny, whom he could never kayo. In a subsequent rematch, Lauro got his come-uppance and lost the duke.


Here is a reply from Hap about the Ortiz/Pep fight when I asked him if he had any details about that fight besides what I knew about it. I had mentioned to him how here you had two of the all-time greats of their divisions, in fact each was arguably the best his division produced.

Yet, news accounts that I've read say Pep won 8 of ten rounds, and Ortiz was never in the fight.The fight, as I said, took place in Braves Stadium in Boston, so my guess is you didn't see it. But did you ever hear any scuttlebutt to explain Ortiz' rather dismal performance - or was it just a case of Pep being that great?

His reply:

I have no idea, nor did I ever approach Manuel on the Pep fight in Boston. Manuel was enigmatic to the highest degree, capable of beating lightweights one night, an unwilling pawn in the next one.

When he chose to be the real deal, he would be magnificent and when he did so, the patented, original ring style was so impressive it left us all in awe of the wonder of this fighter.

I will always believe that greatness is often in the eyes of the beholder, especially when it is made so patent as Ortiz was capable of doing. He was one of those individuals who took his natural fighting gifts for granted, thinking the profession was all a game to be enjoyed as much as any other game. Of course, we as fans, know that is not true. Boxing is fighting for a prixe and fame is fleeting in the ring. I don't think Manuel ever saw it that way, sadly.


Here is another reply from Hap when I had asked him about a particular move that Ortiz kept doing throughout his 3rd bout vs Luis Castillo (this fight is on film). I had remarked to him how I noticed Ortiz do something that I've never seen another fighter do as smoothly or with as much success.

Several times, Ortiz would lean forward slightly at the waist and drop his hands to about chest level as if daring the other fellow to hit him. Then, when the guy tried, Ortiz would lay some absolutely beautiful counters on him. Was that his regular modus operandi or did he do it only in that one fight?

Watching that tape of him was a real pleasure btw. He was an artist in the ring and I now know why you think so highly of him now that I`ve finally seen him in action for myself.

His reply:

That little maneuver of Manuel's was a part of his feinting technique, which I have always considered among the best displayed by a western fighter in the past 70 years. Manuel used his head to feint successfully, causing his opponent to commit himself and counterpunching him sillly. He was an expert at the ploy; maybe the best in my time.
His hands down technique was also meant to lure an opponent into a solid exchange he felt he could easily win. Manuel fought Castillo, his good friend, by the way, about three times. Luis was a good puncher who was billed in Mexico as "The Pocket Battleship".

 

Here is an article by Dan Hanley on Manuel Ortiz.


T’ HAS BEEN less than a year now since Manuel Ortiz was
laid to rest. But during a discussion about the great bantamweights of all time, Ortiz’ name was repeated so often it seemed he was still with us.

Before the first Ruben Olivares/Chucho Castillo match in Los Angeles, a group of boxing writers were involved in a heated discussion about the bantamweight division. One L.A. veteran writer spoke of Ortiz as if he were still slugging.

“This has always been a hell of a good division,” he said. “But for all the ones I’ve seen nobody will ever top Manuel Ortiz. Just look at the records he compiled”

A Mexican, Ortiz fought over three decades, beginning his career in 1937 and not calling it quits until 1955. During’ that time he successfully defended his bantamweight championship a record 21 times, holding the title from 1942 until 1950. He lost the crown for the final time on May 31, 1950—20 years to the day before he died.

Among his most memorable bouts were the five wars he had with Carlos Chavez when both were at the peaks of their careers. Chavez later became one of Ortiz’ closest friends. But their battles were probably the most fierce ever witnessed in Los Angeles.
Each of the five fights between

the two went the distance—a total of 57 rounds of toe-to-toe slugging. Two ended in draws, two were won by Ortiz via narrow decisions and the final one was taken by Chavez through, an even closer decision.

Ortiz won the crown in 1942 with a 12-round decision over Lou Salica. He would go on to fight in 23 world title fights winning 21. In 1943 alone, he successfully defended his title eight times. Many, including immortals such as Willie Pep, consider him the toughest man, pound-for- pound, they ever fought.

“Manny was the first man I ever sparred with,” Pep remembered. “That experience alone
Manuel Ortiz’ career: spanned three decades. He was bantamweight champion of the world for eight years, successfully defending his title 21 times—eight times in one’ year alone! Yet when hç died not long ago, the world press didn’t give him the kind of respect he deserved. This, therefore, is a

BELATED
OBITUARY
FOR A SUPER
CHAMPION

Ortiz as he looked when in his prime. Right: Ortiz (right) with longtime friend and trainer, Ray Luna, arrive in Johannesburg, South Africa, for 1950 title fight with Vic Toweel. It should have been enough to make me hang up my gloves right then and there. Three years later we were both champs. Manny had put on some weight and challenged me for my featherweight title. I remembered what he had done to me in the gym that day. I was lucky to get away with a decision.”

Manuel, all business in the ring, was a funloving individual on the outside. “I don’tthink I ever saw him without a smile on his face and a good word to say about everybody,” Archie Moore recalled. But his partying outside the ring cost him heavily. He lost a wife through divorce and most of his bankroll.

He became extremely sick in 1963 and underwent abdominal surgery for a gastric hemorrhage. He was in such critical condition that reports said he had ‘just about died.’ But as usual. Manuel fought back—and won!

But then in 1968 he was again stricken with the same problem. He knew then he was dying hut he never stopped laughing and smiling and cheering up visitors. Even after everyone had given up hope, Manuel somehow found the courage to leave his hospital bed and make an appearance at the Chuchu Castillo-Jesus Pimenral bout in Los Angeles.

However, three years later, the drinking of the earlier years finally took its toll. He died of cirrhosis of the liver at the San Diego Naval Hospital — and by his side as he slipped into the final coma was Carlos Chaez. the arch-rival of his glory years.

Manuel Oniz. who weighed less than 120 pounds in his fighting prime but was a giant by every other standard. had about 140 fights during his long career (many others were never recorded). Of those. he lost, at the most, only 30, and was knocked out twice—once by Manny Ortega in 1947 (when Manuel was long past his prime), and then for good on May 31, 1970.

Rest in peace. champ.

 

I suppose I can up the Ortiz-Castillo III fight if no one else can be arsed.

 

Sounds good pal, I`ll include the Ortiz bouts along with the rest of your stuff then and you can upload it for the rest of the guys here.

:hat

 

Cheers Bull, I already have em though mate (didn't I give them to you originally? Can never remember where I got fights from.... maybe you gave them to me... )

 

Indeed I did if my memry serves me right, which it may well not as I am downing another flass of whiskey as I typo. Bah, either way I`ll send you sumting else to up then, wont tell you what though haha.

:rasta