Rumble in the Jungle

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by IntentionalButt, Jul 11, 2009.


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  1. rm36

    rm36 Active Member Full Member

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    It's hard to label it as "great," because it was so unorthodox. I don't think anyone was really expecting it, least of all Foreman. Ali used it on Frazier, but Joe was too smart to really fall for it.

    Nevertheless, Foreman looked unstoppable before that, and he never really looked unstoppable again. I'd have to rate it an overall 10 performance.
     
    rm36, Jul 11, 2009
    rm36, Jul 11, 2009
    #31
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Ali is poison for Foreman.

    I'd take the Earnie Shavers version to beat Foreman, yeah, after that maybe not.
     
    McGrain, Jul 11, 2009
    McGrain, Jul 11, 2009
    #32
  3. TBooze

    TBooze Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    Gatti rumours having been going around all evening.

    As for Ali/ForemanII, sure George had it it in him to win, but I just think mentally he was too damaged to get the job done in 76/77.
     
    TBooze, Jul 11, 2009
    TBooze, Jul 11, 2009
    #33
  4. TheGreatA

    TheGreatA Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    But those tactics are why he got pounded on in both fights. He won the Frazier fight with sheer willpower and the Norton fight due to some questionable scoring.

    Even against Ron Lyle he was losing rounds because of the "rope-a-dope" tactics. Lyle simply stood back and outpointed him. Ali realized it was time to get back to business and finished Lyle off late.

    Foreman ran out of gas. I'm not one of those who believes Foreman would've done any better in a rematch really, he just didn't have enough ring intelligence to win that kind of a fight. Ali would've beaten him again, atleast in the kind of form he showed in the Rumble in the Jungle.

    He took Shavers' bombs when he was a shadow of himself, so I don't really count on Foreman landing a big punch and winning. Not against Ali.
     
    TheGreatA, Jul 11, 2009
    TheGreatA, Jul 11, 2009
    #34
  5. IntentionalButt

    IntentionalButt Guy wants to name his çock 'macho' that's ok by me

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    By the way, anyone who thinks I'm ripping on Ali here has me all wrong. It was a brilliant achievement. My only issue - not with him, but with calling it a masterful performance (instead of masterful preparation) - is that he made it ridiculously easy for himself. He didn't really have to overcome any real adversity (though he appeared to be in "trouble" early), and was able to pick his man off at his leisure - which both he and Dundee expected all along. Just because nobody else saw it coming doesn't mean that it wasn't a cake walk for the guy who was smart enough to execute it. The rope-a-dope was a very effective trick, but it wasn't defensive mastery...it wasn't poetry in motion like Ali, even in his latter days, was capable of. He got tagged a few times. Necessary sacrifice, but still. He landed some sweet shots, like I said, but considering what a target George's head was as he came bulling in, he missed a fair amount of counters too. I know it's nitpicking, and I'm not taking away from the achievement - it's just that when you distance yourself from the aura that Foreman had leading up to the fight and the fact that few experts gave Ali a chance...you realize he had fish in a barrel, and he had to empty the chamber a few more times (and eat a little more leather) than one might expect in such circumstances. He was putting on a show and wanted his show to have a spectacular climax (at the risk of an ugly rising action), and I recognize that. He could have employed more conventional (and aesthetically pleasing) means to end it sooner...as McGrain said, he chose to wait until Foreman had absolutely nothing left to make absolutely sure. That hesitation makes me hesitate to say that this was the best effort and the best physical performance Ali was capable of on that evening. Unless maybe the heat got to him too. I'll admit that could have been a factor.
     
    IntentionalButt, Jul 11, 2009
    IntentionalButt, Jul 11, 2009
    #35
  6. Chinxkid

    Chinxkid Well-Known Member Full Member

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    T-Booze, TheGreatA, you're probably right. The George Foreman that most impressed me was the one that showed up after Ali was already retired.
     
    Chinxkid, Jul 11, 2009
    Chinxkid, Jul 11, 2009
    #36
  7. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I think these tactics were not perfect for those fights, but were perfect for Foreman.

    He still dominated Frazier (ATG) and Norton, (excellent fighter who had a troubling style for Ali) whilst, in part, employing them.
     
    McGrain, Jul 11, 2009
    McGrain, Jul 11, 2009
    #37
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    No, you're wrong about that chum. He absorbed bombs from one of the hardest hitting heavyweights who ever did it. He was pissing out blood for a week with his kidneys.
     
    McGrain, Jul 11, 2009
    McGrain, Jul 11, 2009
    #38
  9. TheGreatA

    TheGreatA Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Dominated? Hardly.

    They were perfect for Foreman, there's no question about that, but I don't think the way he fought against Foreman was any different from the way he fought against Norton, Frazier and others, Foreman was simply made for him. That's why I hesitate to call it one of the best performances I've seen.
     
    TheGreatA, Jul 11, 2009
    TheGreatA, Jul 11, 2009
    #39
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Dominated a series 2-1.
     
    McGrain, Jul 11, 2009
    McGrain, Jul 11, 2009
    #40
  11. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    If I had to take bodyshots like that just for someone to say afterwards that I really didn't face any adversity, I'd slap the man until my hand started bleeding. Riding on them ropes sure was no joyride.
     
    Bokaj, Jul 11, 2009
    Bokaj, Jul 11, 2009
    #41
  12. Bokaj

    Bokaj Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

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    No, there's a difference. Against Frazier he mainly stayed on the ropes when already tired, against Foreman he choose to do it when his legs still were fresh and he fulfilled the tactic much more consistently. It was more calculated against Foreman, I'd say.
     
    Bokaj, Jul 11, 2009
    Bokaj, Jul 11, 2009
    #42
  13. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I hate Norman Mailer a little bit, but he sees it the same way as you do. Round one ends and he realises he's going to get caught if he continues to attack in the open, so he elects to snipe. It was the perfection of a strategy he had been working on since Liston I.

    Epic.
     
    McGrain, Jul 11, 2009
    McGrain, Jul 11, 2009
    #43
  14. TheGreatA

    TheGreatA Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Was he tired after three rounds?

    Foreman simply didn't have the stamina or the precision of Frazier/Norton. He threw wild punches which hit nothing but Ali's gloves and elbows. Frazier and Norton picked their spots, got through Ali's guard and never punched themselves out.

    Of course we know what happened when Foreman met Frazier and Norton but that's boxing.
     
    TheGreatA, Jul 11, 2009
    TheGreatA, Jul 11, 2009
    #44
  15. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Frazier set him the unique problem of how to rest, which he knew he needed to do. These were difficult choices,but over thecourse of three fights, these choices were born out by results.
     
    McGrain, Jul 11, 2009
    McGrain, Jul 11, 2009
    #45
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