Marciano..... the greatest cruiserweight.... if he was around today?

I'm taking the title of this thread and answering the question: No. I don't believe the cruiserweight division would interest him. I believe if Rocky was around, and young, today, he would be competing as a heavyweight...where the most money is available.

 

So how badly does Rocky fair against Vitali? It seems to me that you give Frazier his dues to beat him by ultimately having too strong of a defense. Now Marciano, on the other hand would lose due to his inferior defense than Frazier? Am I getting that right because Marciano had more power, better two fisted attack, better stamina, and a better chin. Hardly any of those points are arguably in my mind. Okay, I guess we can factor in closing footspeed for Frazier to. But that's what gets off him... surely a fight with Rocky must be somewhat close than? It would all have to come down to defense then for Fraizer. Unless those 15 pounds (Combined of fat and some muscle) would just be enough for Frazier to win against a man who outweighs him by 40+ pounds. That's just the ultimate limit there...

Out of your predictions, I have trouble accepting the Liston crushing him. Really downplays Rocky's toughness, will, and ability to absorb punishment. Foreman may crush him, but he fairs better against Foreman than Frazier does.

Right, and that is fair. I was looking for that from he grant. I suppose I'm trying to find double standards. It seems to me that any fighter that was even just above 200 pounds automatically is much superior H2H. It's as if he proved it more against bigger men, so we give him that liberty. I don't buy it when looking at the fighters qualities and such. Obviously more weight while not unnecessary weight can be good, I don't take it as a necessary fighter A being better than B. Even if that's in H2H. I really wish in some way that Rocky would have fought 1 or 2 more times. Maybe against Valdez, Patterson, or Ingo. Seriously would've hurt INgo and Valdez. It's the bigger, less elusive fighters where his power would show. Of course, having showing that help him in H2H scenarios I believe. I also think that if he had a chance of fighting Ali in some time-machine sort of way and dealing with all of his antics and for us to see how he fairs would convinced people what he truly was capable of was and he fares against all kinds of fighters.

Liston, on the other hand he came a few years later really does with most of the same fighters. Some a bit heavier, most arguably of comparably or even less of calibre (At least pre-title I suppose). Now, we see how Liston faired and how his career was. We see how Moore was against the bigger heavyweight and still being a contendor at a later age and in to the 60's. But unfortunately for Rock he didn't get a chance to break that 200 pound barrier enough against elite fighters. Louis, Liston, and others get a bigger pass on this I feel. Look how Liston had faired against his era and compare that to how Marciano would. All of a sudden a Liston v Marciano matchup doesn't feel look impossible task to overcome. Heck, even a former middleweight and non-durable fighter like Patterson was a top 5 fighter up until the 70's! Yet Rocky will always have its cynics. Mostly based on a crude assumption dealing with size and weight. It's a shame in a way he didn't come up later, or perhaps earlier. He could've dominated the bigger slugs of Carnera's in Louis day which would ultimately have had impressed people far more.

 

I dont think it is downright indisputable that Rocky has more stamina or a better chin than Frazier.

Frazier was still throwing hard and often in round 15 of FOTC, The thrilla set the record for punches in a heavyweight bout until Tua Ibeabuchi and not all were coming from Ali.

Rocky visited the canvas from lesser punchers than Foreman and Bonavena.

More power? mmm maybe.... not cut and dry for me

ill give you better two fisted attack

 

on the vitali v Rocky argument, one thing which is not really considered is that even though Rocky will be giving up massive reach, how does this effect his game plan? Is there a single fight where Rocky did not give up reach? I cant think of any. As far as i am aware, Rocky gave up reach in virtually every fight he ever fought. He proved himself able to overcome reach more than any other fighter i can think of. And he fought much faster and slicker movers than Vitali, i dont think this is even disputable.

If Vitali is to win, he would need to hope that his power is able to overwhelm Rocky. I cant see that happening, although i guess it is a possibility. Realistically, Rocky makes it a war (like every other fight he fights in) and the winner is the one who shows the most heart. I know where my guess is on this one.

 

Walcott and Moore were both bigger punchers than bonavena. Walcott is rated # 66 on RING MAGAZINES top 100 punchers of all time list. Archie Moore comes in at # 4 and is the all time knockout king. Bonavena did not make such a list, and has not demonstrated one punch knockouts over heavyweights on film like walcott and moore have,

 

Vitali is not a one punch banger. he is an attrition puncher. he takes many rounds to wear his foe down. Fortunetley with rock, rocky will not get worn down. in fact he will get stronger as the fight goes on. Vitali has a history of not tolerating pain well, Rocky knew how to break you mentally and physically. I see rocky at 205lb with modern benefits beating vitali. Remember Vitali has had accsess to modern food, supplements, steroids(tested positive in 96)...if rocky had these benefits who knows what he could have become.

 

I know both are rated highly but who are the genuinely sturdy chinned big men they KOd? Yes they hit hard but most of Moores KOs come against LHW and against very few top notch heavies. Walcott too secured most of his KOs against smaller guys or guys a class or two below himself.
Bonavena hit hard but is lost in the bevy of bangers around at the time (Frazier, Foreman, Shavers, Lyle, Quarry etc). Bonavena himself is a level or two below Moore and Walcott but in terms of power is at least their equal in my opinion

 

Nah, Marciano beats Holyfield for me.

I agree with the TS, Marciano would rule the CWT division in any era.

 

So if he is equal, then Marciano has the better chin in your eyes seeing as Bonavena dropped Frazier twice and had him almost off his feet a third time. Frazier was seriously hurt. I think Walcott generated around similiar power but was definitely the better, more accurate puncher. The shot he hit with Charles was monstrous and that same shot had Rocky down for a 3 count.

If you studied both fighters the way I had you'd know Marciano had the superior chin. The power in the slugger Marciano was more than Frazier. He has many more 1 punch KO's than Frazier and all evidence points to this. Frazier has been hurt, staggered, and rocked by weak hitting punchers throughout his career. It's also important to note that he was down in his second fight against a bum for an 8 count. It's pretty clear Rocky was much more durable.

As for the punch totals in Thrilla. They were both at the stage where they could "get to each other." If Marciano battle it out with an old less moving Ali like that he would have thrown more punches than Frazier. Frazier slows down in FOTC and shows some more wear toward later rounds than Marciano did. Frazier fans will only grab on to the bobbing & weaving & footwork as proof he had better stamina. It's a factor but something they over-factor. Frazier is my 2nd favorite fighter by the way. However, it is clear that Marciano was the best conditioned HW of all time. He threw over 100 punches in round 15 against Charles. His training was ridiculous and the 15 round limit didn't due him justice.

 

It just saddens me.

 

You've got to be shitting me.

Where is the analogous fighter today? Or am I supposed to believe Marciano was a once in a century talent? Who was the last 185 fighter (put 20 lbs on Marciano and you have a stubbier Bobby Czyz) who gave VK fits? Outside of a separated shoulder it took a 250 lb. 6-5 All Time Great heavyweight to do major damage to Vitali and that was in a fight Vit was making extremely competitive.

 

Seamus, you could say no 185 lber ever gave VK fits, but you could also say that VK never troubled any 185 lber ever in his career. For the simple reason that he never fought any 185lber.

For the record, the lightest fighter (and closest in stature) that VK ever fought to Rocky was Chris Byrd. Byrd did quite well against Vitali! Although admittedly, there styles are faily different.

The second smallest decent fighter that Vitali fought was Vaughan Bean. He also did quite well, lasting until the 11th round, which is not bad considering the difference in skills between the two fighters. I actually think that a fighter like Rocky, who has great fundamentals, excellent chin, and a workrate like he wouldnt believe is a massive test for Vitali. I think that he is as unproven against high workrate workers as Rocky is a against big tall superheavys. Maybe even more so.

 

That is an arrogant and ignorant post. What makes you think you know more than me on this subject? You dont know me or my background or knowledge of the sport.
Your statement reeks of bias but you are entitled to your in my opinion bias views.

As for FOTC Frazier slowing down, sure he did, he was fighting a bigger, faster, stronger man than himself who happened to be arguably the best heavy of all time. Charles on the other hand was not as big nor as strong as Marciano and was possibly the best LIGHT HEAVY of all time.

But you would know the difference between fighting a great big man and fighting a great smaller man because you have studied both much more in depth than me!!!!

 

If that was true Louis, Dempsey, Frazier, Marciano--none would have won title, guys who were bigger would have. I'll take Marciano over anyone, heavy or cruiser.

 

Just for the record, Byrd was getting his ass beat in this fight. 88-83, 88-83, 89-82. He did shittily.