Joe Frazier 1971 v Muhammad Ali 1974

At least Ali had gotten his feat wet by facing a string of good fighters before the Frazier rematch. I don't know if that means he was better at age 32 than he was at 29, but its certainly better than taking on the champ after only fighting twice within a near four year period. I know that Ali fans can't continously use his layoff as a crutch, but I also think that it often goes unaddressed or even ignored at times. Had Vitali gotten his ass handed to him by David Haye, would his fans not use the same or similar excuse? Of course, Vitali is 38 years old and not 29, but then David Haye isn't exactly Joe Frazier either.....

 

Yeah, this is the main argument for him having improved somewhat, but I didn't want to go into that discussion if I didn't have to. I'd think it's reasonable to say that he was at his best post-exile in 1972. One can compare the two fights against Quarry to see the improvement he'd made since his comeback.

 

I imagine these people think the same of you when it comes to Ali. :good

If I was 'fully aware' and I felt it 'sounded silly', then it probably was silly and I wouldn't say it.

 

Nah.

Well, you're obviously no visionary.

 

Ha ha, you have to be kididng. I always chuckle when you go off your head at "Duran fans excuses" and "Frazier being shot", as if you're not exactly the same with Ali.

 

Don't try that. I've never used "shot" and "Ali" in the same sentence when discussing these fights. And I've certainly never quoted conspiracy theories as Duran fans do. I've only claimed that the lay-off had taken something from Ali, just like it did from Dempsey and Tyson. I've got no beef with anyone claiming that Dempsey in his prime would beat Tunney or dito for Tyson-Holyfield, and they came off much worse in their respective rivalries than Ali did.

 

To me the '71 Frazier beats any version of Ali in the 70's.

Frazier was at the ideal weight and condition, had great handspeed, was maximumly motivated, and knew he could beat Ali.

 

Ali is better from 72-74 because he has his timing. It's pretty clear. I call this one a draw I guess, maybe an Ali SD.

 

I agree.

Ali by close decision, could go either way tho over 15, I think Ali takes a 12 rder 8/10.... & a 15 rder 6/10.

 

Agreed.

Only Ali at his best could've had a chance of beating Frazier at his best IMO.

 

I'll say this, if Frazier gave Ali a tough fight in '74 and arguably won, then you have to imagine that a Prime one would beat him worse or as bad than he did in '71. I think it's pretty clear here.

 

How do you come at this conclusion? If Ali was arguably beaten by Frazier in '74, how would he score a draw or an SD over a Prime Frazier? No post exile Ali beats a Prime Frazier.

 

Well.
Ali didn´t fight the same way in the second fight as he did in the first or the third.
in the first you could say he fought Fraziers fight, by stand infront of him changing punches. To change punches with Frazier seems very stupid. In the second fight Ali danced all night long and that made it harder for Frazier, always harder to fight a moving target. I think that if Ali would have been able to dance in their first fight Ali would have won, still be a very hard fight but he takes it.
Ali from the 60´s beats any version of Frazier or any other fighter.
IMO
The Predator

 

I don't believe Ali was arguably beaten by Frazier in 74. In fact I thought the win was decisive. I'm under the belief like others that Ali lost a lot of his timing and a few more fights could've improved his timing and sharpness. Why else do you think Ali is better from 72-74 than in 71? Unless you just dismiss this and believe that Frazier beat a near prime Ali?

It would be a close fight. But for FOTC it was the knockdown that really sealed it for Frazier. A less tired and sharper Ali wouldn't have had that happen and he might squeak by in a very close fight. The best I can predict is a draw.

Now, let's think of it like this. Then from 71 to 74 did Ali become better or stay closer to the same or did Frazier just decline faster? 15 rounds over 12 rounds always benefits Frazier, though.

Also, seeing as FOTC wasn't a blow-out (Clear win for Joe though) then my belief that Ali being better around 72-74 would help favor my opinion. But maybe I overestimate that... I don't think so.

 

As big a fan as I am of Ali, I'd have to say that a peak Frazier would beat even the best version of Ali around 5 out of 10 times. 70's Ali would of course do worse.