Look no one is claiming Louis hit like he did in his prime...but compared to the average heavyweight in 1950...I would claim Louis still hit very hard, if not one of the hardest in the world. would you not agree? I challenge you to name me 5 heavyweights in the world in 1951 who hit harder than a 6'2 214lb Joe Louis? Youi talk about his right hand, but what about his left hook? His left hook was still extremley powerful. Louis hit marciano at the end of round 1 flush with a left hook and rocky winced, then took it very well. Also, if you watch the Pat Valentino fight, I would hardly call Louis has having nothing left in his right. Sure it had lost alot of sharpness and timing, but when it landed it did damage(Agramonte II round II fight check it out). What about Louis flattening a Younger Savold with 1 punch, while rocky could not floor a out of shape ruined savold despite hitting him flush all night? "One thing Louis still had was his punch. He could still hit very hard. His skills and reflexes were no longer there, but his punch was." - Jimmy Bivins Ring May 1951
I challenge you HE to find one quote in my lifetime here where I ever said Louis hit anywhere near his prime in 1951. I have not. I am a big joe louis fan, as much as I am a rocky marciano. I realize Louis was far past his prime by 1951, but unlike you I am also smart enough to realize Louis STILL at 37 was a dangerous top fighter and despite losing most of his punching skills, he still had some pop left, had a great left jab, solid technical skills, solid size, and loads of ring experience making him a difficult opponent for a young top contender. Even a old depleted Louis is still better than most heavies. Look at Liston of the late 1960s, Foreman of the 1990s, Louis of 1950s, Lennox of 2003....All were well past there prime...but dont sit here and tell me these guys still could not hit hard, and could not fight world class anymore. Looks like the joke is on you...Now I am waiting for you to find me a quote where I said Louis in 1950 hit like he was in his prime...I am waiting ............
"One thing Louis still had was his punch. He could still hit very hard. His skills and reflexes were no longer there, but his punch was." - Jimmy Bivins claimed Ring May 1951 after his fight with Louis This is for HEgrant. Though Louis was far past his prime and had lost alot of his power/skills...he still had enough power/skill left that made him a formidable world class fighter. I challenge you to name me 5 heavyweights in the world in 1951 who hit harder than Joe Louis? Please...If you cannot name them...then you have no choice but to have to make the claim marciano fought one of the hardest hitters in the world in Joe Louis who also happened to be 6'2 214lb(Same size as Luis Firpo).
Marciano did say that Louis' left "hit like a hammer" but that his right felt like nothing. Watching the fight, it's quite evident that Louis' right was in fact "nothing", he just couldn't fire it off and when he did, it brought him no results. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pbl1ly8vyrE Look at the sorry excuse of a right hand at 7:03 for example. Hardly comparable to: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1452BrhJs0 7:40 Not that Louis still couldn't punch, but saying that Rocky walked through Louis' best punches would be a bit misleading because he didn't truly feel the punching power of a prime Louis.
Your right...but at the same time Rocky did prove he could take punches off a world class 6'2 214lb fighter....Now he did not take punches off a prime louis, but he did take a couple hellacious left hooks off a man who outweighed him by a good 30 pounds and entered the fight a 6 to 5 favorite. Does taking punches off a late 1960s Sonny Liston or a 1990s george foreman mean anything? if you answer yes, then taking punches off a 1950s Louis should mean something too. Foreman and Liston made a living in there older years knocking the crap out of unrated journeyman...while Louis was at least tangling with durable respectable fringe contenders/ top 10 rated men....the one journeyman level fighter louis did fight(Californian champ 6'3 andy walker he knocked out).....Had Louis padded his record with journeyman from 1950-1951 and scored 8 consecutive knockouts, perhaps you would have a diff view on his power. Also, why are you bringing up a video of Louis in 1951 and comparing it with Louis in his prime. Once again, NO ONE HERE is claimg louis hit anything near his prime....All were saying is that compared to your average heavyweight contender in 1951...he was bigger and powerful than most...even at 37. Why not bring up a foreman video in 1990s to prove he didnt hit anything near like he did in 1970s? Even a 37 year old Louis could have easily knocked out all those tomato cans foreman did in the late 80s-early 90s
SQ: You are claiming Joe Louis was one of the biggest punchers Rocky ever fought ... what more is there to say .. I say in name only, not at the time they fought. So Holyfield must have the greatest chin ever becuase he went the distance at 46 ithe Valuev ? The Louis that Marciano defeated did not hit as hard as a prime Larry Holmes, no way. That's you test ?
The issue I would bring up in the context of this thread is how does the Louis of 1951 rate against Dempsey's opponents? Willard was even older, and had not fought in three years. He would come back in 1923 and manage to stop the mediocre Floyd Johnson in 11. Okay, but there are posts on this thread naming Willard as a powerful punching test for Dempsey. What is the evidence Willard could punch harder in 1919 than Louis could in 1951?
Great post Old Fogey. I would love to see HeGrants reply. Willard was 37 years old coming off a THREE year layoff when he fought dempsey. So the Foreman of the 1990s and Liston of the late 1960s or Tyson of 2000s did not hit as hard as larry holmes either since they were in there late 30s-early 40s and clearly downhill? What are you argueing age? Once again, I challenge you to name 5 heavyweights in the world in 1951 who hit harder than Joe Louis? Please name them. I dont think anyone on this forum would agree with you larry holmes hit harder than any version of Joe Louis. Louis was a puncher whether it was 1935, 1942, or 1950...he was always a puncher. Larry never was. Larry could never knock durable top contenders out with 1 solid shot the way louis did to men from throughout his career including well past his prime in the 1950s Also comparing a 46 year old holyfield to a 37 year old Louis is despicable. I think a 1999 37 year old holyfield who defeated moorer and lost to lennox lewis is a much closer resemblence to a 37 year old louis who defeated walcott but lost to charles and marciano. IF thats the case, then who of Marcianos opponents hit harder than Joe Louis? Walcott didnt since he got knocked out by louis a couple years earlier...charles and moore both spotted louis 35lb in weight so I doubt they hit harder, Layne was knocked out by louis in a exhibition and rex himself said that Joe Louis hit harder than marciano, and layne fought a 1950s version of Louis. So who does that leave? Joe Louis, once the greatest puncher of all time....even a depleted 37 year old version of that shell is still a mighty puncher!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KVHNlm9MHPM Watch 3:25 GreatA, now Louis was nowhere near a puncher he was in his prime, but he still could hit. Raw Power is the LAST thing to leave a fighter...Louis still proved he had a formidable left hook. Watch Louis land that crunching left hook on the right side of Marcianos jaw...it freezes rocoo in his tracks. However, Marciano takes it very well and retaliates very well in the flurry while still seemingly buzzed....I mean Louis socked him good there. Thats a punch from a 214lb man. That is going to hurt on a 184lb fighter.
Fogey: Off point here. This is about SQ using Louis of 51 to argue for Marciano's chin strength ... SQ, simple question: Why do you often use the 1951 version of Louis that fought Marciano as a top credit for the strength of his chin? This has nothing to do with Dempsey. This is purely your using that Louis as a substancial credit argument for Rocky when he said Louis had nothing on his right. You constantly argue the tired clique that power is the last thing to leave a fighter and besides not always being the case, it had clearly left Louis.
Marciano in this one quite clearly to me. I'll give Dempsey a slight edge in defense. He avoided shots better and was more elusive in avoiding them. Marciano was built like a rock and took punishment well. Dempsey did too, but the record indicates he was hurt more and he could be hurt more. Dempsey was resilient and fought well hurt but Marciano had the better chin. As for Marciano. I seriously think his chin gets underrated because people cling to the pre 200 pound mark as for fighters. Walcott's one punch power is seriously underrated here... unless of course people think Louis' had a weak chin. I would dare to say that Walcott hit Marciano with a punch harder than Dempsey has. Of course I haven't seen Dempsey on film too much. The Williard fight is complete domination, and the Firpo fight is a mess with Dempsey getting pushed/punched through the ropes and there's no second knockdown in the American version. The Flynn were Dempsey was knocked out cold is also not on film. I don't buy revisionist history about not eating for 4 days, but who knows back then. Louis was still a very capable puncher. Louis was catching Marciano with a quick short left hooks that Marciano just bulled through. Marciano really a terrific chin and I think he gets underrated for the Louis fight in terms of his chin. Louis seems to be the only fighter in his 30's where his power automatically "disappears" because he does connect. Either that or his power is overrated... he was still the greatest puncher of all time and I recognize the speed and reflexes not being all there but this is still Joe Louis at 214 pounds. Walcott holds Marciano's head and tees off on him after the knockdown and puts some punishment on him in round 11 and 12. Don Durphy who called the fight that Marciano took such a battering he wouldn't come out for the 13th round. Interesting enough, Marciano said to Lou Duva that the Moore punch was the "Hardest right hand he ever got hit with." It might have hurt Rocky more than any other punch. For a couple of reasons I think. Marciano being off-balance and Moore catching him when not looking. Moore is an ATG puncher too. But granted, he was a small heavyweight. Moore still KO plenty of 200+ heavyweights and has the all time record for most KO's. Dempsey got up to fight against Firpo hurt many times. But wasn't it Dempsey that was dropped from the weak-punching Tunney when he was on his back-foot? I've heard this before, I have both fights in highlights and don't recall that though. If true, that says how their chins are really worlds apart. He grant, are you schizophrenic or something?
I'm not the one going around calling himself prince. What's next, a symbol ? Sire (LOL), how many KO's did Louis have in his comeback? How many knockdowns did he score? Compare it with the balance of his career and Marciano saying that Louis had nothing ... still on the argument ? Marciano saying Moore being the hardest puncher he ever fought is not a great argument either .. To me Rocky had a hell of a chin against the B plus caliber punchers he fought ... would he have survived Liston, Foreman, Tyson or Lewis type power ? No one knows for sure.
Marciano fought the harder cleaner punchers. Walcott had great one punch power in either hand but also was a slick fighter who had pin point power. The hook vs Charles was one of the best KO's I have seen. Moore KO'd Bob Baker and he also KO'd opponents that Prime Sonny Liston could not stop . Louis was old but still had power and Layne was a puncher. I know Vingo's record does not indicate he was a finisher and they both were green but I heard that Vingo had solid one punch power. Charles had one of the best right hand left hook combo's I have seen.
When do I go around calling myself prince? What a lame ass retort. The name is kind of a joke thing. I don't need to mention the Louis fight because there are far more records I can point out. Moore being the hardest puncher Marciano ever fought? Learn to read man... You can say that for tons of fighters. Dempsey too. I think he survives Liston (And likely can beat him), gets KO by Foreman and Tyson (Although mostly from the speed). I think Lewis can but probably would try out-pointing him being the somewhat smart/cautious fighter he was. Name me 10 Heavyweight fighters with provenly better chins? Seriously, Ali got knocked down by Sonny Banks and Henry Cooper. Walcott hit way harder than Cooper and Marciano got up quicker and was clearly less hurt. Do you hold these knockdowns against Ali? Marciano's chin is arguably on/close to that level.
Who remembers seeing pics of Rocky's nose split in half. Needs the KO goes out there and gets it. Tough SOB. That nose. How does a person keep fighting with a nose like that.