Best contender that Larry Holmes didn't fight.

Patterson did fight some weak challegers but he also did fight Ingo and Liston and if he had to avoid anyone it should have been Sonny. I dont think Floyd would have had too much trouble with BIg Cat

Dempsey was the 1st million dollar gate (BIG BIG Money in those days) he was not as active as he should have been but other than Wills , there were no real threats. Jack did fight Tunney (bad fight for him) but look at the era's before him. Dempsey was an improvement

I lived the 80's and was fustrated Holmes never gave Norton a quick rematch, Then an unknown 19-8 trail horse almost upset him Weaver and he never rematched him. Weaver became champ and Holmes never tryed to unify. Then we had Page, Dokes,Thomas,Tate,Coetzee and no rematch with Witherspoon (15 fight novice) and Williams(16 fight novice) As far as politics. Holmes owned boxing politics. King bribed the Ring magazine(proven ) to raise Tom Prator a Holmes opponent in the ratings. At that time King ruled the WBA and WBC, they opened in country's outside US to avoid the US law. Then Holmes gave up a title not to fight Page. Sorry I lived it as a fan ( fustrating)

 

Floyd actually fought better men in his post title days ... Chuvalo, Quarry, Ellis, Bonavena and Machen. From what I have read and seen he may have beaten every one of them. At an older age he proved himself in a way Dempsey almost did in his post title bouts against Sharkey and Tunney ...

Norton got jobber of a rematch v.s. Holmes because he was forced into an elimination bout v.s. Shavers and was crushed in one round ... that took him out of the immediate picture and he never came back.

Weaver was supposed to be a tune up for the highly touted Shavers rematch. Holmes to this day claims he was sick and was almost upset in a very tough bout. He did however, knock Weaver out. There was not overwhemling demand for a rematch as many thought Weaver was a fluke that caught a sick Holmes unprepared. He then won his own title and alaphabet politics came into the photo ...

After Shavers Holmes next three years were all about two superfights, Ali and then Cooney ... no other alaphabet champ looked like anything in those days and Holmes was without doubt the top heavyweight in the world. Post Cooney he did enter a period similiar to Jack Johnson's post Jeffries where he knew he was getting older and he picked his fights. That being said he still defeated the much younger and well conditioned Witherspoon, Smith and Williams, not exactly bums ... the other guys were so inconsistant, on drugs and/or out of shape that there was never a huge demand for any one fight. If there was there would have been a big purse and Larry has always been about the money. He was never scared. If he was offered a million dollars today he'd fight Wlad in a heartbeat, still.

 

The worst thing I could say about Page is that he did not always train, he would have been in great shape for Holmes as he was for Coetzee. Coetzee was limited but I picked him to stop Dokes and I felt he had a strong chance landing the Right hand vs Holmes. Dokes was also more of a complete fighter than Witherspoon and faster. Thomas was a danger before he went back on H and there was a big money fight vs Tate and at that time, Larry did not stick out as Champ. I think these fights were evident at the time. I never thought much of Bonecrusher Smith, he was limited and got scared when cut and he got his named changed to Boneclutcher after the Tyson fight. Tim was green but always an underachiever and Cooney was a built up one-handed fighter ( wrong hand) Renaldo Snipes who was not known as a puncher went down 2 times and Kings judges robbed Coetzee of the fight but Renaldo almost took Larry. Holmes also fought Leon Spinks after he was KO'd in 1 by Coetzee. People can make any excuse but the best must fight the best, When Holmes was holding on to the title he was protected after he lost it he took chances, it was about the money and he did not have King's love anymore

 

I've made the points before 100 times, but just to show impartiality and sticking to facts is important

1. Dokes was NEVER EVER going to fight Holmes. He was managed by Don King's brother and was expected, with Page, to be Larry's heir apparent. What good was a beaten heir apparent with Holmes ready to retire?

2. Holmes and Tate were indeed on a collison course and were all but signed when Tate was poleaxed by Weaver. The only thing that kept them apart prior was a wish to build up the fight.

TBH i think he would have fought Weaver again if he didn't go so damn inactive and actually built up the fight a little bit more.

 

I will accept that to a degree (in -House politics) but Page, Coetzee, Thomas, were 3 others he could have made money with and would not fight. Holmes never rematched a tough fight ,NEVER......

 

Earnie Shavers?

 

He shut Shavers out in their initial bout, hardly call that tough :huh

 

No argument with these points, just keeping things balanced.

 

Who did Coetzee ever beat to be picked over Holmes ?

He lost to Tate on his home turf.
He got knocked out by Mike Weaver on his home turf.
He got crushed by Greg Page making Page look like Joe Louis.

He beat a drugged out Dokes who had no business even being in the ring with him and near amateur Leon Spinks ... Coetzee would have been crushed by Holmes ..

Dokes was a short armed, light punching, poor man's version of Holmes on his best day. Holmes would have beaten him easily as well.

Pinklon Thomas only had a jab. No big punch and average stamina. He was never going to beat Holmes.

The best of the group by far was Witherspoon but his lazy attitude and poor training habits blew it .

 

Actually he had his moments. Page had to take some of the biggest right hands in the division to find his way home. This was no crushing.

This is all hindsight regarding Dokes drugged and has never been proven, tho i agree with you.

The thing is Coetzee was given a chance post Dokes because it was obvious Holmes had slipped loads. Witherspoon had less reputation than Coetzee before almost dethroning Holmes.

Say wot? Dokes had the same reach as Weaver and Witherspoon who gave Holmes absolute fits. He was as tall as Holmes and younger. He had 2' more reach than Spinks who beat a past prime tired Holmes.

He was also anything but "light punching" once he filled out.

I wholeheartedly agree Holmes would have derailed Gerrie, but he didn't actually prove it.

And neither was Spinks, a blown up light heavyweight without a single fight at heavy.

Get my drift? Nobody is saying Thomas even worries a peak Holmes, but that's not what we are looking at here is it? By the time Thomas was firing, and firing he was, Holmes was starting to struggle substancially.

Not at all. Page was undoubtably more talented than Witherspoon but even lazier and unmotivated, as difficult as it seems. Dokes would have been on par with Witherspoon. Witherspoon was actually a fledgling when beaten by Holmes.

 

I'm going to expand on this. Holmes often didn't beat many "easily". He struggled immensely with Weaver, Snipes and Witherspoon which covers 81-83 and the whole time Dokes may have fought Holmes. Dokes is sure no less dangerous than this mob, and certainly a much better fighter than Snipes so i can't see how it can be comfortably predicted as an "easy" win.

 

I hear what you are saying John but there is a bit more to it I think ...

Holmes dominated the whole fight except one right hand. He came back even in that round to pound Snipes.

He always said he was sick v.s.Weaver and I believe him.

Dokes is smaller, about 6' 2" and his reach is a bit shorter.

Thomas and Spinks had totally different styles. Spinks squeeked by Holmes because of his unique movement, a skill Thomas completely lacked.

I disagree about Page, I fighter I studied a long time. Berbick proved he was overated. Witherspoon had a much bigger punch, better defense, as good if not a better chin and was tougher. Page was , like Dokes and Tubbs, a poor man's version of Ali and Holmes ...

 

Cheers

That is true, but Holmes was ohhhhhhh so close to being stopped. Others have noted fights have actually been stopped on less.

Hard to say. He was a bit of a Duran in this regard. He also claimed he overtrained vs Witherspoon, etc etc if you get my point.

6'3 i think, but as i pointed out simliar or lesser sized fighters had success vs Holmes. Dokes cannot be written off via size or reach.

True, but Thomas brought things to the table Spinks lacked too. What about Williams with his jab? Bonecrusher, Bey, they all gave Holmes heaps of trouble. Thomas was a level above and Holmes was way below what he had been.

Nobody studied Page more than i. Berbick did not at all prove he was overrated, he proved he had a ways to go and needed to get his **** together. Page was a fledgling when beaten by the experinced Berbick, and also broke his right thumb very early. Page was never known for his consistency or getting the most out of his talent. Remember, Page (motivated for once) whupped Snipes later, a Snipes coming off a GREAT win over Berbick.

Page when serious hit harder overall than Witherspoon. Schuyler said he had the best right hand in the division even ahead of Coetzee's. He was also way faster and more dangerous. Look at their bouts vs Snipes, Page, for once motivated made Snipes loook pedestrian. Witherspoon was simply in shape far more often. Witherspoon gains a big lot of milage on his showing vs Holmes.

I'd hardly call Witherspoon an Ali or Holmes either :huh

I mean, who is?

 

Witherspoon gets alot of credit for his performance vs holmes....but had Pinklon Thomas, Greg Page been given a chance...They might have performed better vs holmes than Witherspoon did. Thomas did beat Spoon worse than Holmes did.

 

I agree, When in condition, Greg Page took a excellent punch, moved well in and out, had fast hands and hit very hard and fast with the right hand. he also had good stamina when in shape. I think he was better overall of the bunch and would have been a very serious challange for Holmes.