Frazier - A Top 4 Heavyweight?

But post-Ali Foreman was mentally all wrong and fought in the wrong gameplan for that time for him. And if you're going to criticize fighters for limited primes you can do that for a lot of other fighters (Frazier, Dempsey, etc).

 

An old and returning Jeffires and a bunch of middleweights? I don't know... it's tough with Johnson because he has little on film. Just for Joe being the first to beat Ali I think he has a better resume. It's the constant middleweights, and suspicious dives/declines against some fighters that has my rating Johnson not too highly (Williard). In fact, I have Dempsey over Johnson who isn't even on your list.

 

I agree!!!

Frazier is 1-4 against the best of his time, and has a rather shallow resume by ATG standards.
That said i have him anywhere between 6 and 10 on any given day.
The FOTC is his claim to fame and it was such a pivotal fight historically it is very hard to not give him extra credit for it.
I had him losing a close clear decision in the second fight and the three stoppage losses in jamaica, caracas and manilla suggest there is no way to rank him over Ali or Foreman, so unless one rates him higher than any other ATG heavy before or since them a top 4 spot is out of the question in my opinion

 

He was way too inconsistent at the top for his whole career. That has a lot to do with why he won the titles four times, I give him props as he is the only fighter in history to do that. Except for Ali, to become a two, three or four time champion, you have to lose.

 

But he lost to Bowe, who can be argued at that time as top 5 H2H HW fight. He lost a very close decision that he could've been awarded in the Moore fight and a fight in which Holyfield had problems with his heart (It's weird the situation. But Holyfield looks strangely tired). Then who comes back and becomes the second person to beat Mike Tyson not once, but twice!

In terms of his resume. You can argue he beats 3 fighters that that are top 10 in terms of H2H (With Bowe being in that peak at the time. While Tyson still a force). He beats 3 Top 10 HW ATG fighters in Tyson, Foreman, Holmes, and beats Bowe who is at his peak in H2H monster.

Let's check out the rest of his resume.

Moorer
Stewart X2
Mercer
Ruiz
Rahman
Thomas
Holmes

And he drawed Lennox Lewis in a very controversial decision. He has the cruiserweight thing as a bonus too. I understand he doesn't have consistent longjevity but he does have arguably the best resume of any HW champ. He regained the title a record 4 times and arguably 5 for his dubious loss to Valuev. Him fighting too long might be hurting his legacy.

Truthfully, I have Holyfield ranked #11 but I can see how you could justify a 5-10 spot largely on achievement, competetion, and resume. Nobody dominated the 90's and for him to regain the title 4 times says something.

 

Wow. Really interested in the big gap between Frazier and Foreman, especially with Joe the higher rated of the two. Can you fill me in with your reasoning?
Cheers

 

What's your criteria just out of curoisity? Do you highly value H2H?

 

About 7 or 8.

(& its 2-1 Ali )

 

I agree regarding Joes victory being one of if not the best victory in HW history.
I think if you give Joe leeway for mental decline post Ali it is hard not to do so for George also.
George may struggle with guys not on the list, i personally think he would beat Byrd and Walcott, but I think hed beat a few youve got ranked higher than him also, as evidenced by Frazier
I also give him credit for the win over Moorer some 20 years after losing the title to come back and beat "The Man" is no mean feat.
Fair points youve raised though, ill have a think about it and see if i need to reassess my position

 

I see. I don't think Frazier was that past it. And I think he deserves credit for Foreman being the first not only to beat him but demolish him. He also has a good resume off of that to boot. I give Foreman leeway post Ali in the ways people do for Tyson post-Douglas I guess.

It seems you evaluate skillset seeing how high Liston is. Foreman would be something that a technical boxing book might frown upon a little bit in one way. All that raw power while not entirely developed and balanced. Liston has to be one of those fighters that are nearly perfect on paper, but I don't think you can just evaluate fighters on paper. Otherwise Marciano wouldn't be able to be as good as he proved. Frazier might not have beat Ali on paper too. If you lessen Foreman's credit for Frazier, do you for Ali for underestimating Frazier and not having quite the same timing? How do you take into account the suspect dives and being knocked out in round 1 by Ali for Liston? Really tough on Dempsey, too. Your list is unique and unconventional so I can dig that. Willis 4 spots above Dempsey? 1 spot above Foreman and in the top 10? You don't see that much.

 

Frazier at one time stated he felt he was behind Marciano and Louis at #3, because he defeated Ali, but imo, I don't consider him a top 10 HW. Top 15 yes, but not top 10. I have always felt he lost both times to Oscar Bonavena, though he got the nod both times, and outside of victories over Mathis, Ellis and Ali, the rest of his challengers were either average at best or were on the downside [think Chuvalo].

He lost twice to Foreman in devestating fashion, never fought Norton, and the so-called 'win' against Ali in their second bout---at BEST---can be argued as a draw or a straight up SD win for Ali, but that is just my opinion through my eyes. Whether he wants to admit to it or not, he will be a facet of Ali's legacy, not the other way around.