Rank these guys in terms of ability... HOPKINS, DLH, LOPEZ, MARQUEZ ?

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Bill Butcher, Jul 28, 2009.


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  1. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    Well, we'll have to agree to disagree Dina.

    I think DLH does just as well against the best 140 pounders say as Hopkins does against the best 160 pounders.

    DLH wouldn't fare quite so well against the top lightweights as Hopkins would the middleweights, but that to me says more about the depth of the lightweight division than anything else.
     
    sweet_scientist, Jul 29, 2009
    sweet_scientist, Jul 29, 2009
    #61
  2. DINAMITA

    DINAMITA Guest

    Fair enough mate :good
     
    DINAMITA, Jul 29, 2009
    DINAMITA, Jul 29, 2009
    #62
  3. godking

    godking Active Member Full Member

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    Oscar does not belong in this discussion physical abilities and learned skills are two different things.
     
    godking, Jul 29, 2009
    godking, Jul 29, 2009
    #63
  4. zarman

    zarman Guest

    hopkins
    marquez
    DLH
    lopez
     
    zarman, Jul 29, 2009
    zarman, Jul 29, 2009
    #64
  5. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    That's because it was close. Close for Marquez at the beginning of the 11th. In the 11th Marquez dropped Casa twice. If he had somehow made it out of the round he would have lost that round 10-7. Assuming you don't think Casamayor then would have rallied and taken the 12th Casa would have finished the fight down by 4 points on two cards and 7 on another - a wide UD then.

    As it was, Marquez knocked out Casamayor, the most definitive way a fighter can win a fight. No, I don' think it's at all fair to say he was "close to losing the fight". But he did take 5 rounds to find his rhythym. After that he took it away from Casamayor. In other words, he stepped up to 135 pounds, knocked out a previously unstopped ranked contender having made mid-fight adjustments against a cagey counterpuncher at a new weight for a unique stoppage win. Wonderful performance.

    Nobody beat him, nobody stopped him would be the bottom line, none of the ranked fighters that Casamayor fought was able to stop him. I agree with you that the Cruz fight was a pretty nasty decision.


    It's a bold claim given the extraordinary punching power Pacquiao has shown. Marquez is also proven against the bigger, stronger Diaz.

    I don't see any need to translate it actually; dismissing him as only having proven his work rate is taking to much away from him I think.


    I would say it's just as important if you don't get hit a lot - taking punches is something that needs to be learned like anything else, and if you suddenly start taking them from a confirmed puncher having become used to having it all your own way you whilst lacking this attribute, you will lose (see Mijares).
     
    McGrain, Jul 29, 2009
    McGrain, Jul 29, 2009
    #65
  6. Bill Butcher

    Bill Butcher Erik`El Terrible`Morales Full Member

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    I agree, its no shame for any of these guys to be no4 when you look at the quality of the other 3 & Oscar was a really good fighter but he is 4th IMO.

    Lopez was the best tho I believe, Hopkins gets a tad overrated by some fans, he was/is a brilliant fighter tho.
     
    Bill Butcher, Jul 29, 2009
    Bill Butcher, Jul 29, 2009
    #66
  7. lefthook31

    lefthook31 Obsessed with Boxing banned

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    Hopkins (he knows all the tricks)
    DLH speed speed
    Lopez technically very good
    Marquez same as Lopez (same trainer from the same mold)
     
    lefthook31, Jul 29, 2009
    lefthook31, Jul 29, 2009
    #67
  8. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    True. After the tide turned in the 11th, it was no longer close. But I'm just saying, if Casamayor had a little bit more to offer, Marquez was losing that fight. I think a prime Casamayor easily outpoints him. Casamayor was far from his best and still made it close for 10 and a half rounds.

    I would say it was a good win given how limited Marquez is at the weight. People that think he is an excellent lightweight are deluded.


    That would be saying a lot more than it does if Katsidis wasn't on the brink of knocking Casamayor out. It's not as if Marquez was knocking out Julio Cesar Chavez. Casamayor was ready to go and the writing had been on the wall for some time.


    Diaz is no where near as big or strong or powerful as Castillo, and Pacquiao, whilst a big puncher is not a physical fighter that imposes his size on the opponent. And most crucially of all, this is taking place at LIGHTWEIGHT, not super feather, where Marquez was quite a bit better. If an OLD Casamayor and Diaz are giving him tought tough fights, well, I think it's an easy step to make that a prime Castillo beats him.


    Well I did say that he has proven that he can beat an old Freitas and Katsidis, so I am giving him some credit. ;)

    Ultimately yes, but Mijares had quite a run without being exposed simply through his evasiveness and other skills, so it surely wasn't as important to him as it was to some others.
     
    sweet_scientist, Jul 29, 2009
    sweet_scientist, Jul 29, 2009
    #68
  9. divac

    divac Loyal Member Full Member

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    McGrain, quality posts my brother!:good


    Scientist, you're desperately trying to compete in this debate.....and ala your favorite Sweet Pea, you're ducking and dodging but not mounting an effective offense!:D;)

    ......judging from most of the posters in this thread, I think its safe to say DLH falls behind the other 3 which are more complete.
     
    divac, Jul 30, 2009
    divac, Jul 30, 2009
    #69
  10. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    I would disagree that he's not a fighter that uses his style - certainly he likes to bull, if not wrestle. He's certainly not an ideal foil for Castillo - i'm not arguing that - but Marquez has fought twice at lightweight and won twice by knockout, twice against guys more proven at the weight. So far size has proven absolultely no deterrant and I think you shold be more careful about making it criteria for your pick; as for losing to better puncher's, Marquez has fought on absolutley even terms against a far more dangerous puncher than either of those guys.
     
    McGrain, Jul 30, 2009
    McGrain, Jul 30, 2009
    #70
  11. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

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    Thanks for this compliment - but i got to tell you i though SS made excellent points, certainly impacted my thinking a bit.
     
    McGrain, Jul 30, 2009
    McGrain, Jul 30, 2009
    #71
  12. DINAMITA

    DINAMITA Guest

    Or just putting forward his own p-o-v? I don't sense any desperation, and I disagree with SS on this. People are often too competitive on here, I don't for a minute think McGrain and SS were trying to 'out-do' one another, just having a discussion.
     
    DINAMITA, Jul 30, 2009
    DINAMITA, Jul 30, 2009
    #72
  13. DINAMITA

    DINAMITA Guest

    I should add: I don't think Marquez-Casamayor was particularly close. For me, Marquez took control in the middle rounds and stayed in control until the end, more or less. He didn't lose any round badly as I recall, the fight was close for a few rounds then JMM started pulling away. Strong performance against a wily campaigner at his 3rd weight class. Top marks IMO.
     
    DINAMITA, Jul 30, 2009
    DINAMITA, Jul 30, 2009
    #73
  14. Minotauro

    Minotauro Boxing Addict Full Member

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    Hopkins
    Lopez
    Marquez
    De La Hoya
     
    Minotauro, Jul 30, 2009
    Minotauro, Jul 30, 2009
    #74
  15. sweet_scientist

    sweet_scientist Boxing Junkie Full Member

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    I don't think Castillo and Diaz are all that similar in style, one is more a swarmer, the other an educated pressure fighter. Diaz also tries to put pressure on, but he is scatter gun; he throws punches in bunches and hopes some of them land. Castillo is much more precise and controlled in his pressure. As far as strength goes, I think they are far apart. And as far as punching power goes, I think Castillo has a decent edge there too.

    Casamayor of course, is a natural 130 pounder and isn't the type to use strength in a way to grind someone down like Castillo would. Totally different style of fighter.

    Marquez has not dealt with a fighter as strong as Castillo before, ever. Pac is maybe a bigger one punch hitter than Castillo, but Castillo's punches are quite debilitating as well but in a different manner. He is more a body puncher, Pac is more a head hunter.

    I should perhaps not try and draw conclusions too quick about Marquez based on fights against disimilar fighters, but what leads me to believe that Castillo would beat him more than anything else is that he looked very hittable and just generally vulnerable in his two lightweight fights, and the guys he was facing were not at the level a prime Castillo is. If you deny that, you aren't being honest.
     
    sweet_scientist, Jul 30, 2009
    sweet_scientist, Jul 30, 2009
    #75
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