You Can't Touch This...

Not to me either. He was after all not defensive in the least but he did mix offense and defense very well at his best.

Adding Duran brings some nice variation to the highlight. Ali wasn't one of the greatest defensive fighters either in my view, atleast fundamentally, but you can't deny the man's talents and how hard it was to hit him in his prime.

 

Chinx youll love the training i did today

i had to go in the ring with my trainer whos about mid 40s fit as hell, an alright boxer (knows the findamentals) and has a huge punch

and not get hit

we did about 10-15 minutes non stop of me didging shots i maybe took 5 alltogether. Loved it shots just missing by millimeters and inches.

 

Brilliant point that about the timing of te shot as thats all the natural rythem or the radar or instinct so to speak. Defence is the most rythmic thing in boxing.

Duran for me is almost the ultimate boxer in terms of offence and defence. The way hed attack without being hit, simply brilliant stuff.

 

Yeh great fun, but the trainer hit like a Heavyweight so was tiring being constantly aware. Its more my head movement than my feet that help me avoid punches.

You gotta stay fit and kick that habit :good

To hit or not to get hit, aye, that is the question ... rather to hit AND not get hit, that is the point...

its easy to do one or the other but its hard to combine both.

Great point on Pep and Walcott, they used there defence as momentum. Duran wa the opposite he used his offence as momentom. Duran for me is the opposite of Pernell Whittaker in terms of Defence


also you couldnt check out the Greb vs Calzaghe thread, we need your help

 

just watched a heap of fights

Pastrano vs Johnson was one (on recommendation of Red Cobra and i thank him)

Very good fight by 2 defensive masters. In the last round of the fight Pastrano is like a big Pep. Johnson was an expert counterpuncher, and Pastrano had a brillaint jab.

It got me thinking lets discuss fighters like Ali, Pastrano, Pep who use foot movement for defence more than anything

then you have guys that use their head movement like Locche, Benitez, Duran

then you got guys who use blocking and parrying like Winky Wright, Bernard Hopkins

lets discuss these 3 categories

 

GPater, it's worth reading the chapter on Willie Pastrano in Peter Heller's GREAT book "In This Corner"...where Willie says that his strategy against Johnson was to absolutely refuse to lead...to counterpunch throughout the fight...thus forcing Johnson out of his "comfort zone" so to speak and put him in the uncomfortable and unfamiliar role of the aggressor...it was a masterful strategy for Willie, and was what made him champion. He says in the book that he didn't believe that you had to take it to the champion and beat him to a pulp "like Joe Louis", and that you could win by making the champion "come to you"...and I agree 100% with that and that's why close decisions going to a champion are a bunch of bunk IMO. Ali was a recipient of gift decisions vs Young and Norton...both times the title should have changed hands. Glad you're enjoying the Pastrano-Johnson fight...it's one of my alltime favorites...and it appeals to certain tastes to be sure...I've been questioned before on why I'm so fond of that fight, and why it would appeal to anyone (lol)..I don't know man, you just gotta love the technical, artful side of the sport...and I know I'm in good company with you and everyone else in keeping this thread, one of my favorites ever, alive. There's a good number of, again, in my opinion, knowledgeable posters here in this thread that show their appreciation of the absolute finer side of this sport...the side that completely distinguishes it from these modern day travesties like MMA and USB, which compared to the Noble Art, are like backalley sideshow carnivals.

 

Similar to Pastrano's chapter in that book, my favorite boxing book, I believe, is the chapter on Carlos Ortiz, who also had a brilliant strategy in his lightweight title winng bout with Joe Brown. For the Brown fight, Ortiz and his trainer concieved the strategy of only using his left throughout the bout...and by that I'm sure he meant "minimal use" of the right, as I have still not been able to find a tape of that fight, which I'd love to see. It's guys like Ortiz and Pastrano and others who use their heads and employ clever strategies like this that interest me so much. Another unsung strategist was Alfonso Peppermint Frazer, who actually figured out the secret strategy that worked for him in defeating the master Nicolino Locche, though no doubt it wasn't a peak Locche that he beat over 15 rounds to tkae the title. His strategy was to "move in and out and concentrate on fast, light but clean flurries to the body, completely ignoring Locche's head"..and sticking with it for the whole 15 rounds. The body of Locche, he reasoned, wasn't nearly as elusive a target as the great Argentine master's head..and it worked!!

 

Ill check it out just bought 2 fairly big books today in Unforgivable blackness and Budd Schullbergs book.

The fight is brillaint technically one of the best. As for Pastranos strategy he did a fair bit of leading with the jab but he just stepped back and drew Johnson onto more jabs that he trebbled up perfectly. The 15th round Pastrano is Pep like.

Defence is definitly the finer points of boxing, nothing like it anywhere else.

thanks for that Ortiz was a clever fighter.

Peppermint Frazer had a great strategy to beat Locche and it worked shows how good it was.

 

Pastrano is one vastly underrated boxer. I know he was so erratic early in his career, and could have been a more serious fighter and done less carrousing (but he wouldn't have been Willie), but at his best, he was one fast, clever and slick boxer, that's BOXER in a major way, as in he was a purist with a pathological fear of getting his face messed up...cause that would have hurt his extracurricular pursuits, y'know. One thing he's not often given credit for and that was his world class set of whiskers...he was never down from a head shot in his career, and only put down once, in his very last fight by that wicked left hook to the liver by Jose Torres.

 

Willie is one of the purest boxers ever. Infact his jab is pure poetry probably the best LHW jab i have seen, hes right up there in terms of pure boxing with Tunney and Loughran for me (another set of good defensive fighters). Yeh he hada great chin like all Italian boxers one tough guy.

His erratic early career was mostly due to undiscipline and weight issues

thanks

i hate the dentist i fainted in it once

its real interesting seeing all the different types/styles of defence

 

Locche is the best defensive fighter I've seen. Zapata has qulaity defence too.[YT]SPkh4t1XU30[/YT]