Ezzard Charles was as good as Ray Robinson

Discussion in 'Classic Boxing Forum' started by Manassa, Aug 9, 2009.


  1. Manassa

    Manassa - banned

    7,766
    93
    Apr 6, 2007
    Anyone agree? For me, he's the light heavyweight version, the differences being (pound-for-pound):

    - Robinson slightly quicker
    - Slightly more agile
    - Tiny bit better at punching

    - Charles being stronger
    - A bit smarter
    - Better infighter

    You could argue Robinson had a better chin, and he probably did, but there's not as much in it as there first seems. I mean, Charles' durability was far more tested than Robinson's.

    There's not much in it on the punching side of things either. Robinson was the better puncher, but then Charles also scored some spectacular knockouts on both light heavyweight and heavyweights.

    But then Charles was definitely the stronger and smarter infighter by a clear margin.
     
  2. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,178
    48,444
    Mar 21, 2007
    I'm interested in your claim that Charles is the smarter fighter. I really, really rate Robinson as a general.
     
  3. GPater11093

    GPater11093 Barry Full Member

    38,034
    92
    Nov 10, 2008
    I agree with McGrain

    I'd also add Ray Robinson has a better offence and Charles has a better defence. Robinsons combinations are better also.
     
  4. PowerPuncher

    PowerPuncher Loyal Member Full Member

    42,723
    269
    Jul 22, 2004
    I rate Charles very highly but Robinson is clearly better if you watch both on film
     
  5. Manassa

    Manassa - banned

    7,766
    93
    Apr 6, 2007
    Same.

    But then Charles beat Charley Burley, and this was before his career-altering spell in the army. Charles was always a smart fighter, but had yet to aquire the muscle and grit that would help him avenge those losses to Bivins and Marshall.

    Charles took the first Burley fight on short notice. Burley fought recklessly, trying to make quick work of Charles, but he couldn't, and was thoroughly outboxed and outfought. Burley took a more cautious approach in the rematch and was again trounced convincingly.

    Then there's Archie Moore of course, who once said something to the effect of; "I kept changing my style for every bout we fought, but I still couldn't get past him [Charles]."

    Jersey Joe Walcott twice - that's like Ray Robinson twice outsmarting Joey Giardello. Joey Maxim five times, Jimmy Bivins four times... These were all very smart and seasoned professionals of the elite level. An aging Charles also arguably beat Harold Johnson. Parallel? Robinson, having slowed down a bit, running it close with a prime Tiger Flowers.

    (For the record, I think Johnson won, but still - Charles was well on the way down).

    Robinson just didn't face as many top flight stylists.
     
  6. Manassa

    Manassa - banned

    7,766
    93
    Apr 6, 2007
    Robinson's a bit more explosive, but then Charles had a stronger base and better infighting. A bit more ugly as a fighter maybe... Although if you watch the very scarce prime footage of Charles you'll see he's a bit more exciting there.

    We ain't got the best footage, or only small amounts, of both at their peak, so some of it we just have to go by on records and accounts.
     
  7. My2Sense

    My2Sense Boxing Junkie Full Member

    11,935
    92
    Aug 21, 2008
    I think the case could be made that Charles as a LHW was as good as just about anybody.

    Not only is he generally considered the best ever at that weight, but he 3 out of 3 times beat a fighter who might possibly have been the #2 at that weight. How many other fighters have done that?
     
  8. McGrain

    McGrain Diamond Dog Staff Member

    113,178
    48,444
    Mar 21, 2007
    Well he's in the type of company where you are going to end up running in circles if you try to say "A is better than B". He was an extraordinary fighter.
     
  9. ripcity

    ripcity Obsessed with Boxing Full Member

    20,449
    51
    Dec 5, 2006
    Ezzard Charles should be stronger than Ray Robinson. Charles was a lightheavyweight and heavyweught while Robinson was a welterweight and middleweight. Overall I think you make a good case for your point.
     
  10. Sweet Pea

    Sweet Pea Obsessed with Boxing banned

    27,199
    94
    Dec 26, 2007
    On film Robinson looks way better to me, though there isn't much prime Ezzard out there. That said, even the older Robinson looks better than pretty much any footage I've seen of Charles.
     
  11. Manassa

    Manassa - banned

    7,766
    93
    Apr 6, 2007
    Don't take me for an idiot mate.

     
  12. Manassa

    Manassa - banned

    7,766
    93
    Apr 6, 2007
    I don't think there's much of a gap. Robinson is more aesthetically pleasing, but then so was Marvin Hagler over Carlos Monzon.
     
  13. Minotauro

    Minotauro Boxing Addict Full Member

    5,628
    713
    May 22, 2007
    I agree with Manassa. Charles was just as good as Ray it can be argued over who was the smarter fighter. Also at their best weight Charles has greater wins.
     
  14. Manassa

    Manassa - banned

    7,766
    93
    Apr 6, 2007
    Without doubt. Charles has quality over quantity, although Robinson beat his fair share of genuine greats, and Charles was less consistent.

    But Charles is one of those fighters who you can argue his prime to have came in a very specific time period. '46 was where he came out of the army and was a much different fighter - stronger, sturdier, nastier. He swept the light heavyweight division clean and beat the best heavyweights of the late '40s.
     
  15. Wu-Gambino

    Wu-Gambino ESB Swordsman Full Member

    336
    2
    Nov 17, 2006
    Very similar stylistically; two extremely talented, classic 40s style boxer punchers although Charles didn’t quite have the flair of Sugar Ray. Robinson's offensive arsenal, hand speed, and footwork were superior but I do agree Charles was better on the inside and physically stronger. All other attributes are pretty much even money; durability, stamina, ring intelligence and generalship, knockout power, etc. The problem with Charles is that most of his fame is based around those two Marciano fights in '54 whereas his prime probably ended around '51 where he looked noticeably sharper and more agile. His last great performance in his physical prime was probably Walcott II; great tactical fight by both guys but Charles was the classier guy that night and took over down the stretch. I don't recall him ever really looking quite that good again. I think Walcott’s picture perfect knockout over Charles a few months later marked the end of Charles’s best years, although he would carry on to be a formidable fighter for a few years after. At that point he was relying more on his guile and experience rather than his athleticism.

    It's a shame we don't have a substantial amount of peak footage of either man. I've seen some footage of Robinson-Angott (I'm not sure which one) taken by someone in the stands as well as some footage of Ray against Georgie Abrams in '47 but the quality is pretty bad for both fights. The Charley Fusari fight might be the only reasonable piece of footage of Robinson at 147. The Charles-Lloyd Marshall rematch is also on tape for anyone looking for peak Charles but the film looks a little sped up so it's hard to guage Charles's speed and reflexes at 175. If only there was mint footage of Robinson-Gavilan or Charles-Moore...