Who Wins: 1951 Louis or 1991 Foreman ?

Currently dealing with it! Still I wasnt referring to Foreman when you said he'd beat any other heavyweight, I immediately thought of someone else to be honest.

 

It has to be said though that most of Foremans key wins over this period come by knockout.

He has the power but does he really have the reflexes to close the deal at this stage?

If not then I suggest that Louis could take it on the cards.

 

There was a picture I posted up of a early sixties Liston & Louis together and Liston looked almost as old as Louis...not good.

 

I never saw Sonny Liston as a fat slob in his last yrs of walking the Earth.......... Even outta shape at 218 against Clay in Miami, Liston still looked like a strong man.......

After Louis was KO'd by Marciano in 1951, Louis went from 213 pounds to 260 pounds with ease....... Louis did it all within a few scant years too......

Joe Louis looked like **** the last few years of his life while at Cesar's Palance in Vegas..... Louis was in his 60s, but he looked 80.......... Totally senile as all hell, as well.......

MR.BILL

 

Good points,

And let me clearify that a 40+ year old Foreman beating a 37 year old Louis is no given. But frankly, i think Joe would fair better with a different fight plan than the one he executed against Marciano or Savold. Standing strait up and trying to slip in and out is not something that I see being very effective, even against this version of Foreman. Shannon Briggs, Michael Moorer and Lou Savarese were all decent heavyweights in their primes, and none of them faired terribly well by employing this type of Tactic...

 

Louis was a stalker; not a runner or mover..... Louis normally moved forward and backwards in a fight..... I cannot recall seeing Louis ever use lateral movement to any great extent........ Same can be said about George Foreman as well...... So, considering both had great jabs, I clearly see a great fight in the making....... However, Louis would be small compared to the hulking Foreman...... I just think that Foreman had more in the gas tank as they entered the twilight of their careers........

MR.BILL

 

If you have so much of a problem with me then why don't you just put me on your ignore list? And don't act like this whole time you've been ignoring me. I was answering SQ's question. Obviously it was directed towards you, but why care if I chime in? I think you got it backwards. Plus, you've responded to all my threads anyway.

 

styles, Foreman crushes the great joe louis.

 

See... That's a sobering observation.... I agree.... The young Louis who was knocking out dudes from 1937 to 1942 was a great two-fisted ring general who had punching power and explosive combination punches in his arsenal...... That version of Joe Louis was a much better fighter than the young George Foreman who threw crazy-ass punches from any and all directions in a sloppy manner.....
:deal

However, as the years mounted, like somewhere around 1948 and upward, Joe Louis was slower and much more easy to hit with clean shots... That would be his undoing against a 1990 to 1991 George Foreman who actually learned some technical skills like shortening up his punches and pacing himself properly... I'm almost certain that the 41 to 42 year old Foreman clobbers the 36 to 37 year old Joe Louis in a time machine.... Foreman was the most intense and toughest animal in the ring that I have ever seen from a dude over age 40......
:deal

And, as for owning a beard / chin, well, George Foreman was tops there for a 40+ fighter..... I know Evander Holyfield was NOT the hardest power-punching heavyweight champion of all-time, but Holy's power was worthy of respect...... I cannot see Joe Louis taking the same punches that Foreman took from Holy in 1991 in rds 3 & 9......... Any other dude would've hit the deck from the assault that Holy launched in rds 3 & 9 against Foreman.......... Cheers......
:bbb

MR.BILL

 

I find it funny how people talk about Foremans "terrific" power in all the tomato cans he blasted away in the 1990s. The reason Louis knockout percentage was low in the 1950s was he was usually taking on Young/Durable/Defensive fighters keen on survivng. These are extremley hard fighters to take out. Had Louis from the Charles-Marciano fight taken on 8 tomato cans and beaten there brains out in 1-2 rounds....Then would you be talking about how he lost his power? Fact is if Louis got to feast on the oppositiion foreman did 1987-1990 he would have piled up his kayo record too. But notice, whenever George Stepped up a class to take on fringe contenders, all of a sudden his knockout percentage dissapeared!! Alex Stewart, Tommy Morrison, Crawford Grimsley, Axel Shulz, shannon briggs, Lou Saverese, evander Holyfield...all of these step up in competition resulted in ZERO kayo victories. In fact if not for the miracle Kayo of moorer, foreman would not have one knockout victory over a contender. This proves to me foremans power and ability to finish world class men in the 1990s is vastly overstated considering how all of these mediocre fringe contenders manage to survive going toe to toe for 12 rounds against him. At least when Louis fought his men....Fighters like Agramonte, Bivins, Brion simply ran for 10 rounds making it nearly impossible for Louis to put them away. The guys who stood in front of Louis like Walker and Savold and Beshore...were disposed of. Sure Louis lost alot of his reflexes, sure he lost some power, sure he lost alot of speed...but whatever he did have left...still made him a formidable world class fighter with a dangerous left hook, Hammer Left jab, Fundamentally solid skilled boxer, and Veteran Ring Savvy. Don't foget Foremans power and speed tools had drastically gone down since the 1970s too. Louis in his comeback in fact knocked out MORE top 10 Ring Magazine contenders than Foremans. Foreman did knockout Moorer, a great upset, but it was his THIRD title shot. Louis only got one title shot. Perhaps if he got 3, he would have pulled off the miracle too.



Thank you for listening

 

Yes, the 36 year old Lee Savold who weighed 190 Lbs and had been Ko'd 9 times in his career, was certainly far more durable than a 25 year old Michael Moorer who stood 6'3", weighed around 220, and had never before been beaten. Jimmy Bivens who was 5'9", 180 and had been stopped on 5 occasions was way more durable than Lou Savarese who stood 6'5", 230 lbs, and was unbeaten 36-0. And who could ever forget about Cesar Brion, who quite frankly made Evander Holyfield look like the hairiest ***** one has ever seen? How dare we credit Foreman for stopping the giant Pierre Coetzer who just 6 months earlier, was the IBF's #1 contender, or the brittle Brazillian adilson Rodrigez who the WBA and WBC dared place in their top 10? And fighting the monsterous Briggs at age 48 does nothing to eclipse Louis's magnificent feat of taking 10 rounds to stop the 190 lb Andy Walker with his spectacular record of 17-8....

Suzie. You have once again schooled us all...:good




EDITED: Okay, that was a tad sarcastic, but I just hope that you look at both sides of the equation and not just Foreman's struggles with stopping much bigger men with lesser histories of being Ko'd.

 

Maghoo if you are going to question the durability of Lee Savold...then perhaps we should take it to a different thread. Savold from 1941-1951 fought every puncher from here to antartica and was only stopped twice(by elmer ray and Harry bobo two huge punchers)...Savold was literally thrown to the wolves during those 10 years yet only managed to be stopped twice in over 70 fights. If your not impressed, then watch the film of a fatter ruined savold a year later take Rocky Marcianos sunday punches without going down...Yet Joe Louis does the trick with one punch.


To compare the punchers Lee Savold took on to the field Michael Moorer took on is a travesty. the only heavyweight puncher moorer actually fought during that time was Bert Cooper, who coincidently managed to floor michael 3 times. Michael never had a good set of whiskers. Michael was a hell of a lot better fighter than Savold, no doubt but arn't we talking whiskers here?

Bivins Kayoed 5 times in 112 bouts- If we round up about 4.5 % of the time he was knocked out in his career

Saverese Kayoed 3 times in 53 bouts- If we round up about 5.7% if the time he was knocked out in his career

Edge: Bivins



2ndly,

To even compare Bivins and Saverese is incredibly bold of you. Saverese was nothing more than a mediocre average fighter his whole career, he had perhaps the most paddded record of the era. I doubt if he was ever top 10. Bivins at least managed to crack the top 10 again in 1952.

Bivins on the otherhand(Funny you mention his height but fail to mention he had a 80" reach) not only had a good chin but far better skills and defense than Saverese. Bivins had been in 100 fights, he knew how to survive. Big Bangers Henry and Baker certainly could not put Bivins away in the preceding fights.

Saverese on the otherhand showed he was pretty easy to be stopped early. Tyson Izon and Johnson did it. Fairly easy. Yet Saverese managed to go toe to toe with foreman for 12 rounds?

So your making fun of a ex world class boxer who just died 2 weeks ago? very thoughtful of you. At least you didnt make fun of Brions chin, because you know it was made of Iron. Combine that with his defensive style and you have a very difficult fighter to stop...even for a prime Louis.

nice of you to spill that info. Now let me spill some new info for you... I checked the 4th edition of Boxing register and Neither Coetzer nor Rodriguez were rated top 10 by RING MAGAZINE. I could care less about the organaziations ratings, I care about RiNG Magazine and they were not in the top 10 according to my knowledge.

Monsterous? LOL What was Briggs biggest accomplishment prior to fighting foreman? Just curious


You make fun of Andy Walker, but Andy Walker had just fought to a draw with # 6 rated Rex Layne in a fight the press called a "Horrendous" decision. Walker also defeated Frank Buford to win the California State Heavyweight Title, the same buford who was coming off a win over # 4 rated Clarence Henry and had been listed in Ring Magazine as a "CLASS A boxer Frank Buford".

Who had Briggs beaten prior to the foreman fight that compared to a Controversial draw with top contender Rex Layne and winning of California State title over Frank Buford? Was it Briggs momunental win over Melton Brown? LOL or wait I should say "MONSTEROUS" victory over meltion Brown. LOL

 

The Louis that lost to Marciano was a shell of his former self....actually a shadow of the shell he once was. 91 Foreman would hurt Joe very badly because Joe wouldn't be able to get out of the way. George would be able to take anything that version of Louis had left. Prime Holyfield hit George with everything but the kitchen sink and Foreman kept coming after him and those punches came in hard fast combinations, not the one or two punches old Louis could muster out of his worn out body. George would blast that version of Louis out of the arena in 1 or 2 rounds.