Middleweight Tournament Round 2: Hopkins vs LaMotta

dude i'm not even gonna argue with you ...robinson beats trinidad .. delahoya both on the same night .. the fact is hopkins never beat or fought anyone NEAR robinson at anytime in his career

 

I would like to know how Hopkins's middleweight resume is any better than LaMotta's.

 

that's what i would like to know LMAO ..

 

PowerPuncher obviousely horrible underrates Lamotta. He loves to bring up fights of jake that happened when he was far past his prime/weight drained. I would suggest to Powerpuncher to actually study some film of a pre 1950 jake lamotta then get back to me.


2ndly, he has an obbsessive infatuation with the "Black murders row" where he thinks there GODS. Little does he know Lamotta was the only white fighter of the era to take them on consistently, and he did quite well. Beat Holman Williams, beat Bert Lytell, staged a very strong finish vs Lloyd Marshall nearly kayoing him at the end, First Man to beat a Prime Sugary Ray Robinson. Thats very respectable. Not to mention his thrashing of ATG middleweight champion Marcel Cerdan. Lamottah had balls. AND skills.

As for Lamotta ducking ANYBODY, that is laughable. He was the most fearless fighter of all time. If the money was right, he would take on anybody. White or Black.




I do not see why powerpuncher has to attempt to degrade Jake Lamottas accomplishments in order to pump up Bernard. it makes him look stupid.



Btw, who has hopkins defeated AT 160 that remotley compars to Sugar Ray Robinson, Marcel Cerdan or Holman Williams?

 

Great A,


it is not.


Here are some of the following TOP 10 contenders/Champions Lamotta beat

Sugar Ray Robinson
Marcel Cerdan
Bert Lytell
Holman Williams
Fritzie Zivic 3x
Laurent Dauthille
Robert Villemain
Tiberio Mitri
California Jackie Wilson
Irish Bob Murphy
Jimmy Edgar
Jose Basora 4x
George Kochan 2x
Coley Welch


All of the following men were TOP 10 by RING MAGAZINE according to 4th edition of BOXING REGISTER when Lamotta beat them


Just to let everyone know, I left out some good names . Lamottas resume is stacked




If we compare that to Hopkins resume at 160 we have

Oscar De La Hoya
Felix Trinidad
Joe Lipsey
Carl Daniels
Howard Eastman
John David Jackson
Glen Johnson
Andrew Council
Robert Allen 2x
Antwon Echols
Keith Holmes
William Joppy
Syd Vanderpool


I didnt check Ring Magazine so I cannot confirm all of these men were top 10. But it defintley appears to me Lamotta holds the edge in resume

 

I think Hopkins is a horrible nights work for any middleweight, but so is Lamotta.A relentless, indomitable machine who just kept coming Lamotta seemed impervious to pain and his boxing ability is hugely underated ,he fired off two handed salvos to body and head ,and though he was not a massive puncher he got your respect ,he put Robinson down and nearly out of the ring.
Hopkins had old school skils and a sneaky right hand ,he is also a master of the naughty stuff, but it would be a mistake to get physical with Jake, who could probably hold his own with any 160 pounder at the rough stuff,Tiger,Valdes and Fullmer included.
Lamotta is more proven at the weight for me,and has better scalps on his belt imo.
B Hop liked to set the pace and control the tempo ,he would not be able to do that against the Bull, it would be 15 rounds of all out war ,and Lamotta would take a dec imo.His body punching clinching it in the final stages of the fight.

 

I have to favour Hopkins to win a UD. Hopkins was the more versatile fighter and even if LaMotta got in close he would be facing a very savvy fighter who knew how to fight on the inside.

LaMotta style wise is exactly the kind of fighter that Hopkins usually dominates. Pavlik while very different to LaMotta was a fighter known for workrate, power and pressure but even an old Hopkins was able to use speed and distance to diffuse these attributes. Workrate means nothing if you cannot get into position to punch.

As for Cottodabodykill atsch I am cringing at some of the things you have said in this thread go back to the lounge.

 

:good

 

I said resume not 'middleweight resume', but Hops certainly performed better

 

LMAO at Suzie including Lamottas LHW wins and excluding Hopkins LHW wins and including fighters who certainly weren't ranked at MW or in any division when Lamotta fought them

Lets Put Lamottas Resume Under the Magnifying Glass:

Sugar Ray Robinson - no way was he ranked at MW, he was 145 in Lamottas 1 win over him, good win but he wasnt ranked at MW at the time. Robinson would ofcourse win the other 5 fights, despite being vastly outweighed in most by upto 17lbs

Marcel Cerdan - quality win but in truth Cerdan wasnt as proven as Trinidad

Bert Lytell - 18-4-2 with no big wins, certainly not a top10 MW, Lytel arguably beat Lamotta, Lytell was 1 of the weaker fighters of the Murderer's Row and was only 21yo when they fought

Holman Williams - Holman's 174th fight and he was 34yo and an ex-LW, certainly past his prime as he wasnt beating the same fighters he used to beat, he never recorded a good win again and had already lost 4 times in the 8months prior

Fritzie Zivic 3x - Zivic had 170 fights and had never fought above WW before, certainly a smaller past prime fighter and certainly not ranked at MW when they first fought out of the 4 fights, Zivic won 1 and took Lamotta to 2 disputable decisions

Laurent Dauthille - Poor resume, hadnt scored a win over a contender when he first faced Lamotta which he won, only 8 wins out of his previous 18 at that time. Lamotta would avenge the loss

Robert Villemain - Lamotta went 1-1 with the ex-WW and Lamottas win was an SD that was booed

Tiberio Mitri - Euro Champ who never fought in America before or after, making him hard to judge

California Jackie Wilson - a decent Welterweight who certainly wasnt ranked at MW as he never even competed there, he was also barely a top 10 WW

Irish Bob Murphy - went 1-1 with Lamotta, the first fight Lamotta was pulled out because his unbreakable chin was getting broke. YES SUZIE IS BENDING THE RULES TO INCLUDE A LHW DESPITE THE FACT HE DIDNT WANT TO DO IT FOR HOPKINS

Jimmy Edgar - No real impressive wins on his resume, unlikely he was top10 at the time. Egdar took him to an SD none the less. Another fighter coming up from WW

Jose Basora 4x - what Suzie doesnt say that out of the 4 fights, Basora won and drew the first 2, good fighter, not 1 of the best contenders of his day however

George Kochan 2x - I doubt he was top10, he never beat a top contender and was 25-4-10 when Lamotta faced him. Also Suzie cheating again including a LHW fight

Coley Welch - decent record against nobodies, never beat any of the better names. Suzie cheating again, it was a LHW fight

Now all this aside Lamotta is a very good MW, who will give top fighters hard hard fights but this resume certainly does show him to be a dominant fighter that should be favoured over ATG men of the same weight

 

So ****in what?!?!? He was clearly one of the best fighters in the World at that time if not THE best and this was in the time where weight deficiencies wasn't as infrequent as it is now.

 

So Lamotta isnt the great fighter he's made out to be, very good yes, great is he bollox. He struggled against average smaller contenders and lost against the best. There's no shame in that just don't make him into 1 of the best MWs ever because he isnt close

Lamotta was certainly never the best MW in the world, he blatantly ducked Burley, didnt face Moore/Charles. And ofcourse Robinson was always the better man when he actually moved to MW. Lamotta didnt face most of the best MWs anyway, he prefered smaller and older men

Lamotta = 160lb Ricky Hatton

 

There is a certain degree of bias coming from both sides.

LaMotta was a genuinely great middleweight, definitely better than Ricky Hatton, but then he wasn't quite as good as some are making out either.

Many people do overlook LaMotta's subtle abilities, and then others appreciate them; but they appreciate them a bit too much and act as though he was a Henry Armstrong reincarnate.

Let us not undersell Hopkins, who, though ruling in a weak division, proved his greatness with a long and dominating reign that I doubt LaMotta would be able replicate.

Hopkins would have too many answers for LaMotta in the end, winning a bruising decision.

 

The "right" answer is usually always someone in the middle Manassa, youre not wrong.

To Powerpuncher,
PP come on.. Lamotta the middleweight Hatton...Absolute poop talk. :-(

 

LaMotta beating Robinson and ending his undefeated streak was a shock to the boxing world and got LaMotta a number 1 ranking at middleweight.

Robinson by the way weighed 150 pounds for their 5th fight, only a couple of pounds less than in their sixth fight, and won a controversial split decision.

Wasn't as proven as Trinidad? At middleweight he certainly was. The only fighter Trinidad beat that was worth anything at middle was William Joppy, a mediocre title holder.

Cerdan beat fighters like Tony Zale, Holman Williams, Georgie Abrams, Harold Green, Dick Turpin, Cyrille Delannoit.

Lytell was actually ranked top 10 that year. A year later he would go onto trouble Holman Williams, Charley Burley, Cocoa Kid, Aaron Wade.

Williams had troubled Cerdan previously, a fight which by newspapers was scored a draw, but LaMotta by all accounts beat him decisively. A year previously he had beaten Lytell, Burley, Moore, Cocoa Kid and Wade. In his last fights he would go onto lose controversial decisions and retire.

Not saying that it's as good as beating Holman at his peak, but most certainly better than he majority of Hopkins's wins at middleweight.

Zivic had in fact fought middleweights and was also stylistically a difficult match-up for a young LaMotta, since Zivic had handled pressure fighters very well in the past (most notably Henry Armstrong). LaMotta learned a lot from those fights.

I don't know what's so hard to judge about him, there are film of many of his fights and he scored wins over Jean Stock, Cyrille Delannoit, Dick Turpin and Laurent Dauthuille previous to fighting LaMotta and later on went to flatten former MW champ Randy Turpin in one round.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hsjqWSfogkA

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9NLct0TzX4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaMjpTanjp4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AP9is2HUkkw

He was top 3 at welterweight at the time LaMotta beat him (rated above the so-called Murderer's Row). In his next fight he went to a majority decision loss against Robinson.

Wilson had beaten Cocoa Kid, Ceferino Garcia (former MW champ who weighed 156 lbs), Kid Azteca, Pete Lello, Baby Arizmendi...

Edgar was a top 10 middle throughout the mid 1940's.

He must have been one of the best, since he was rated in the top 5 for a long time. Had rivalries with LaMotta, Robinson and Holman Williams, troubling them all.

Kochan was top 10 at one point, at the time LaMotta beat him. LaMotta and Kochan were only a couple of pounds over the limit in their fights, wouldn't really call it a LHW fight.

You must put it in proper perspective, since many fights back in the day would be fought at a couple of pounds over the limit. Still it would affect the rankings.

It's not like Hopkins fighting Pavlik, Wright and Calzaghe at 170+ lbs.

He did beat Jose Basora and was a top 10 middleweight.

SuzieQ left out Bob Satterfield, George Costner, Tommy Bell, Gene Hairston, Norman Hayes, Joey DeJohn, Tony Janiro, Tommy Yarosz, Walter Woods, probably because of issues with weight so he was being fair.

Anyone's resume could be picked apart the same way, even Hopkins's, perhaps even worse.