Middleweight Tournament Round 2: Fitzsimmons vs Robinson

Yeah Robinson to outbox him for me as well.

 

Which Robinson is Mr Fitzsimmons knocking out on this ocasion?

Mr Smith or Mr Leonard?

 

This is an awful, awful fight for Ray Robinson.

Firstly, he is fighting at middleweight where he is not as comfortable as he was at say welterweight.

Looking at his record there are some performances against opposition that is not in the same class as Fitz. Firstly, there is the very controversial split decision win over Marty Sevo. In this fight the crowd apparently bood the result and the referee gave the decision to Ray. However, the other two judges gave it to Ray. One of them apparently had it 9-1! Now, in a close fight, that is a bit of a crooked decision (even without seeing the fight). Either way, he was obviously troubled badly by Servo.

After this, there was the loss to Jake Lamotta. EVen the third fight with Lamotta was a very close affair, where Robinson only won, after being saved by the bell in one of the rounds, at the count of 9, apparently. In 5 fights he never really solved the lamotta problem. He struggled because of his chin and power. Fitz had an awful lot more power than Lamotta and his chin while not as 'marketable' is more proven, in that it takes a heavyweight shot.

Next uo is a draw with Jose Basora. Basora was apparently a counterpuncher. This sounds Familiar. Fitz was a counterpuncher with a lot more power. There are no doubts that Fitz beats this version of Ray that turned up. It wasnt the best ray obviously, but if the best ray doesnt turn up to meed Fitz, he kets knocked out clean.

The draw with Henry Brimm will have to be overlooked, because i know nothing about it or Henry Brimm. I doubt he was in Fitz' class though.

It wasnt until 1951 that Ray won the middleweight title. After some easy middleweight fights (i am not sure if they were exhibitions or just non title fights) he then fought his first test against Randy Turpin. He lost. From this point, rays losses were regular at middleweight and above. He didnt really prove himself as a world class middleweight (to an all time geat level). In fairness though, he usually came back to beat guys like Fulmer, but there is no second chance in this tournament.

Perhaps the most telling factor is Rays performance against the big middleweights and light heavys. It wasnt the best. And rays best at middleweight was as a small middleweight. Before any prediction can be made, we need to be perfectly clear about the middleweight limit and the weigh in procedures. Ray is very possibly going to be fighting a fighter who is fighting at the same weight that he won the world heavyweight championship at, on fight night.

So think about this, those who take the popular Ray Robinson pick, They are saying that a small middleweight (natural welterweight) was at one point in time, good enough to fight and beat the World heavyweight champion. IN fact, Fitz' psi punch rates have been measured as similar to Vladimir Klitchskos. Even if you believe that they were not 100% accurate in those times (unlikely) as they were today, it is quite clear that his power levels were close (not allowing for timing issues which he was so good at). Ray is going to struggle big time with this sort of power.

I am not going to predict just yet, as i dont believe any valid pick can be made until the Middleweight limit and weigh in time is clarified.

 

Very, very interesting. According to Fitz, he weighed 158 when he KOd Corbett and won the World Heavyweight title.

Ray's approximate record at this weight was roughly 30 wins and 14 losses by my calculations. I would say that less than half of those wins are by KO and of those KOs, most of the fighters are of questionable qualities, although obvioulsly the Lamotta KO is a good one and i would guess that around about this time is probably primeversion of Rays middleweight carreer.

Now looking at Fitz at 160, you can see an awesome record. Admittedly, he did do a lot of work a little over 160, but his career shows that he was more than capable of boiling down and maintaining form. In fact, he could have taken this fight at pretty much any stage of his career. The closest thing he fought to Ray was probably Jim Corbett. Jim had a similar style to Ray, but he was a natural heavyweight (or Cruiserweight in todays weights). There is no doubt that Jim hit a lot harder than ray, and he also probably took a lot better punishment). Not only did Fitz Take Jims best, without discouragement (more than likely at below the 160 level of this fight), but he actually knocked Corbett out. No way any version of Sugar Ray knocks out Jim Corbett.

As for class, there is no doubt that Sugar Ray is a pound for pound all time great who did his best work below middle but was good enough to step up to win a middleweight world title. The Non pareil Jack Dempsey was a similar fighter of similar standard. Fitzsimmons knocked him out.

When i think of this fight, Ray must be a little weary of Fitz power. He would have to box him and try to jab and run and try to sneak a points decision. But if Corbett cant do it, how can Ray, who is much smaller and with far less power. The advantage some say he may have is combination punching. But how does he execute it. Does he try to change his style and outwork Fitz? Maybe attack him and go to for the KO? Something he isnt really accustomed to doing and combination punching or not, at some time, Fitz will catch Ray off balance and will land big time. If he does, it should be over.

I really cant see any possible or sensible way that Ray could hope to win this fight. I suppose if he was to win, it could only be by hitting as hard and often as possible and soaking up some massive punishment or at the least some huge shots, with workrate being the difference. Realistically, i think that Fitz wins by KO and i wouldnt be surprised if it was as early as the 5th round or even earlier. Fitzsimmons KO 5.

 

SRR, hard fought UD, far better better boxer, faster, isnt getting hit by Fitz best punches, but I'm sure fighting a strong aggressive pressuring puncher won't be easy none the less

 

At middleweight? Fitz he was a bull at higher weights and a skilled fighter nonetheless. Give him more credit!

Good article here:

http://cyberboxingzone.com/boxing/box6-99.htm#fitz

BOB FITZSIMMONS … "POUND FOR POUND – THE BEST EVER"
By Tracy Callis

 

i was going to vote for robinson but after reading boilmakers post what he says makes sense so am going to do some more reading and watch robinson some more before posting a vote ,could robinson go the whole 15 without getting hurt and then surviving fitzsimmons attempts to finnish him off if strong heavyweights could not.

 

I agree Butt..My instinct was to side with Robinson for no other reason then..well..its Robinson.

But Boiler makes a very compelling argument.

 

i never thought i would be doing this but i am going for the bigger man who ko`d heavies to score a come from behind stoppage win ,robinson has the speed and skills obviously to outbox fitzsimmons, but just see him catching robinson with too much power for a natural welterweight not in his prime to take

still not sure at all though but am picking fitzsimmons