Middleweight Tournament Round 2: Fitzsimmons vs Robinson

I vote Fitz. Boilermaker made the case and I agree with it.

Just to give a reason--Fitz handled bigger men. He seems to have been an outrageously hard-hitting middleweight. Robinson was actually at his best at welter and had an indifferent record in many ways as a middleweight, losing to Turpin, Jones, Fullmer, and Basilio. Contemporaries thought Fitz was the hardest hitting HEAVYWEIGHT of his era. Robinson never fought anyone who punched like that.

Good big man over the good little man.

Frankly, I wonder if Turpin, Jones, Fullmer, or Basilio between them could give Fitz a very tough fight.

 

If we take the Fitzsimmons who actually fought as a middleweight, stopping Dempsey in the 13th round at 150 pounds and lost by KO to Jim Hall in 4 rounds, then I'd have to say Ray Robinson. I feel that Fitzsimmons did better against fighters who came at him and gave him opportunities to counter than against movers who hit him with combinations.

Of the only good film we have of Fitzsimmons in his prime, Corbett was giving him a lot of trouble with his movement, feinting, jabbing and also the rare combinations that he threw. When Corbett started unloading combinations, Fitzsimmons had to go down and take a knee. Fitzsimmons however was strong and was never discouraged, knowing he had a lot of time against an opponent who was starting to tire.

By the way I'm pretty sure that Robinson had something like 70 fights at middleweight and over, of which he lost 3 (LaMotta, Turpin, Maxim) before he was his 3 year layoff, and 3 more before being 40+ years of age against Jones, Fullmer and Basilio. He had wins over LaMotta, Fullmer, Olson, Turpin, Basilio, Graziano, Villemain, Basora, Abrams, Castellani, Levine, Delannoit, Barnes, etc.

In a 15 round fight, I'd pick Robinson to win by a decision. Fitzsimmons beating much bigger and stronger men is an incredible feat but in my view his style worked better against slower, more crude opponents than smaller, quicker boxers.

 

fitzsimmons too primitive. i think ray would annihilate him, early.

 

compared to robinson he is. a lot of people here are nostalgic for guys that would be in tough man competitions nowadays.

 

Fitzsimmons was a product of his time. If you ever read his writings, you'd know that he was a very smart strategist in the ring. Today his style would obviously be different but in his time his style worked to perfection considering the rules and conditions he fought under.

 

and i wouldn't dispute just how tough old time fighters. one thing i do take into consideration is how awkward a 'modern fighter' would find someone like fitz. i just don't believe it would outweigh how outgunned he would be against ray, regardless of his much-vaunted power.

 

i can completely see how robinson could get a decision win here fleaman but wins early that is a bit strong in my humble opinion

 

1. Corbett--Corbett was 2 to 3 inches taller than Robinson and from 25 to 30 lbs heavier. He punched hard enough to ko Sullivan. Certainly Robinson was quicker, but I think Corbett got about the ring faster simply due to a much longer stride. Note how Maxim easily closed the gap on Robinson in their fight. Fighting tall men who are quick on their feet is a bit different from fighting short plodders like Basilio. Anyway, Fitz ended up catching Corbett and putting him down for the count. I think Robinson faces the same fate.

2. Jim Hall--There are plenty of rumours of the 1890 fight being a fix, but ignoring that, Hall was a big middleweight and possibly more of a modern supermiddleweight at 6' 1". The weight limits of divisions were dodgy in those days. Certainly Fitz creamed Hall in the rematch. This could be a good argument for Robinson, but Fitz did not lose honestly in a fight from the Hall fight in 1890 to the O'Brien fight in 1905, except for the two ko's by the massive Jeffries.

3. None of that long list of middleweight victims contains anyone that I think is a likely winner over Fitz, and Robinson lost 18 times to middleweights, not including dodgy decisions such as the Abrams fight. I remember an American TV program back in the seventies in which Robinson was a guest. When asked who hit him hardest, he said Artie Levine. No offense to Artie, but Fitz is in a whole different league. I remember Jake LaMotta on a TV program about the same time with Robinson sitting beside him saying Robinson was not in the same class as a puncher with Bob Satterfield or Danny Nardico. Size does matter and Fitz is not only bigger but a hellacious puncher for his size.

4. I don't think there is much evidence that small guys gave Fitz trouble once he hit his stride. After all, he held the middleweight title six years and never lost it, moving up to the higher weights.

 

This is irrelevant in every way, shape, and form.

They fought 6 times, most of them taking place with Robinson weighing in over 10 pounds less than LaMotta. I'd say going 5-1 against a fighter and finally stopping him in your last bout together constitutes as figuring him out. :good

Again, it was the Welterweight Robinson that struggled with this, and it wasn't so much his punching power as it was his natural mass and strength advantage. Things Fitz didn't really have at WW, being a lanky man himself.

I'd say more but I'm trying to leave era by era debates out of this. This isn't really a serious matchup for me as I believe Robinson would win easily, just as most top modern fighters would. But for the sake of argument....

Not really. Basora was a pressure cooker with a high workrate who utilized a two fisted attack of straight punches and a tight defense. If he was a counter-puncher, it was probably in the way someone like Qawi was, though they weren't too similar stylistically.

That can be argued. I would argue that any version of Fitz that's been captured on film gets knocked out clean by Robinson after a one-sided pasting.

He won the MW title 5 times in one of the deepest MW eras of all time. I think that cinstitutes as proving yourself. What did Fitz accomplish at MW, exactly?

I am saying this man...

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would've beaten this man, regardless of the small size difference....


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Count me in that group.

 

agreed. the recent concensous is that lamotta could beat hopkins. going 5-1 with someone as good as lamotta is some achievement.

 

I prefer Fitzsimmons in this matchup because I see it being a case of a great smaller man facing a great larger one. Robinson, while still a damned good middleweight, was reaching the top end of his greatness at that weight. Fitz was just getting started and went on to accomplish things in the classes Ray couldn't due to his size limitations.

As such, I like Fitz in this one- potentially by late stoppage.

 

Well, if you cant beat Marty Servo, on that particular night, then i am guessing that this particular version of Ray is not going to beat Fitz. Limited weight though i Agree as this version isnt turning up to fight Fitz.

How much less than Fitzsimmons on fight night is Robinson going to weigh? Robinson doesnt get fight fights in this tournament to finally figure Fitz out, which he may do eventually.

You are kidding me. I will agree that many heavyweights in history had more mass than Fitz, particularly modern ones. But, Fitz is no more "Lanky" by middleweight standards than guys like Hearns and Monzon. All have a massive mass and strength advantage over the smaller Ray Leonard (who i am not trying to overly criticise by the way). This cannot possibly be a serious comment.

Well the modern argument is your only real argument for Sugar Ray Fans (although i guess the dance and run decision is also arguable). For the sake of this tournament match, let us not forget that Fitz has already beaten a modern fighter in round one of this tournament. And he did it comprehensively. YOu can get no more proof of that in this tournament and it is now impossible to say that Fitz' style cannot beat modern fighters, because he aready has beaten one, easily. Incidentally, while we are on this subject, who did Ray beat in round one of this tournament. Did that fighter take enough out of Ray to slow him down enough for Fitz to catch him?

I will have to take your word, i read somewhere that Basora was a counterpuncher. WE know that Fitz definitely was. We also know that Fitz was also a two fisted fighter, and he could also hit with straight punches and had a tight defence.

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That can be argued. I would argue that any version of Fitz that's been captured on film gets knocked out clean by Robinson after a one-sided pasting.