Was Demspey's duck of Greb even more blatant than his duck of Wills?

As have been said: yes money is the primary motivator, but legacy is not unimportant. Patterson took on Liston as a point of pride, and even though Holmes mostly looked for the green when he fought it's easy to tell that he cares a lot about his legacy - feeling himself unfairly being cast in Ali's and even Louis' shadow. And Louis was very keen to set the record straight against guys he felt he'd underperformed against. Wouldn't surprise me if Duran felt a great need to redeem himself after "No Mas" either, Foreman certainly had a personal point to prove in his comeback. These guys, and many others, was in it for the money, but took great pride in their legacy. Would guess that this is how it works for most great champions.

 

Dont make me lie to you .Over 8? Touch andgo,despite whatr Mendoza thinks,Dempsey is my man,then how camn you not have huge respect for Greb?

I invoke the 5th amendment. I bottle it ---A Draw!
Apologies fir punctuation.

 

Well, it's like this; I've heard it all before.

When Greb was threatening Dempsey he was already beginning to cool, starting to acclimatize and smile favourably on his lofty status. Some of the grit from his teeth was already going.

Now get Jack in 1919 for one shot.."this is it kid, go for broke", and then put Greb in front of him. 'Fear' is a very strong word, 'management' held Dempsey more than fear and Kearn's directed his cash cow as he saw fit.

What we must understand is that Dempsey the champion was a different guy to Dempsey the contender. He went from running though walls for survivals sake to going daffy and getting his nose done 'cause his women liked the idea.

 

It was never going to happen. When Dempsey met Kearn's in 1917, which I'm sure was before Greb sniffed another heavyweight: Dempsey was likely going off on one about how badly Reisler had matched him the year prior. Dempsey put so much faith in Kearn's who was undisputedly the driver in the car.

Even if Kearn's thought that Dempsey could beat Greb, if it came at the expense of looking bad then nope.

But yes, it would have been viscious.

 

I think there's a slightly warped version of history being assumed.
From contemporary newspaper reports I've read the wider public were not aware of Harry Wills being any sort of big issue until sometime after Dempsey began his reign, probably sometime after he fought Carpentier, and mostly after he fought Firpo. There were no ratings to proclaim Wills "number one challenger for SEVEN years", but many reporters who DID label him "best of the contenders" usually qualified the statement with caveats along the lines of "on recent form few experts consider Wills a real danger to Dempsey's championship" (I'm paraphrasing a number of articles I've read c.1921-23). On top of that, many reporters in the first half of Dempsey's reign thought the race issue fair reason to leave that fight alone anyway.

As the public and much of the press were "ignorant" of Wills' credentials as an "outstanding" contender, as we now assume, there simply was NOT the public perception that Dempsey's supremacy was being undermined by the existence of Harry Wills. Hence no "blatant ducking" in the same sense as what Patterson would have been doing had he followed D'amato's advice in regards to Liston, IMO. Everyone who knew sports had seen Liston and Patterson and knew that Liston was undermining Patterson's status, on television. In the case of Dempsey, most people had just heard that Wills was probably the best of an inferior bunch.

 

Find it hard to believe ... from the time of Willard's reign, Wills was beating a far better crop of fighters than Dempsey inbcluding dominance over Sam Langford. This did not go unknown.

 

There's also reports of Wills being avoided and Dempsey hiding behind the good old color line. In every article from '20 on that i've seen, Wills is mentioned, usually among others, as the most deserving challenger.

No one in boxing history has avoided a well deserving challenger for such a long period of time. Fact.


I've also seen an article from july 1918 on a Dempsey fight, where he is described as "a relatively unknown heavyweight". That goes to show you just how horrific communication was back then; most people here think Dempsey did his best year before winning the title, which would only be half a year later at that point.

Here's a few pictures where Wills is included (in quite racist manner):

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This content is protected

 

1924 Ring Rankings:

Heavyweights

Jack Dempsey, Champion
Harry Wills
Tommy Gibbons
Charley Weinert
Quintin Romero Rojas
Jack Renault
Luis Angel Firpo
George Godfrey
Jim Maloney
Erminio Spalla

 

There are no rankings in the February, 1922 Ring Magazine, but Harry Wills is mentioned as "foremost negro heavyweight, who is hot on Dempsey's trail." Harry Greb is mentioned as "Pittsburgh middleweight, who is eager to relieve Johnny Wilson of his crown but can't get the elusive champion into the ring."

 

Would Dempsey-Wills or Dempsey-Greb have drawn a $1-million gate?