Middleweight Tournament Round 2: Fitzsimmons vs Robinson

I only just saw this comment about PSI measurements. So you dont like the measuring methods. I can accept the concerns, but surely they cannot be so far out as to be totally wrong. They must have been close at least (they did still have mathematical formulas and other things at this time, you know).

But i guess perhaps more importantly and more interestingly, let us assume that they were correct and Fitz hit pretty much as hard as Klitchsko and others. Does this change your opinion of the fight and do you think that Ray could take the full heavyweights punch? I am not so sure but how about you?

 

What we do have of Fitz on film shows him carrying the fight to a Corbett who is much bigger than Robinson but tried to fight Fitz in a similar way, and ended up getting knocked out.

We don't have the Fitz-Ruhlin fight, but off the Jeffries film with Ruhlin, Gus was another tall man who tried to fight on the outside. He also got knocked out.

There is no more evidence that Fitz could only fight as a counterpuncher than there is that he had touble with smaller men. It is all just speculation. Fitz really didn't have that much trouble with anyone except the giant Jeffries while in his prime.

Truthfully, the only guy who really defeated Fitz from 1890 to 1905 was Jeffries, who was an undefeated heavyweight champion who weighed something like 210 to 220 lbs.

Robinson didn't beat anybody at all like any of these men. I don't think he managed a clean-cut win over even a fair lightheavyweight.

I agree that the major argument for Robinson in this matchup is the unstated one that modern fighters will beat old-timers regardless. I am just not so certain of that in this case.

 

Fitzsimmons ko'd Corbett in the 14th round.

The same as the round in which Robinson did not answer the bell against the powder-puff punching Maxim.

 

No, it was in the 14th round that he KOd corbett, inside the 15 round distance.

Also, it isnt true to say that he was outboxed, as he won the last few rounds before the stoppage. Further, my understanding of the rules of the day (and scoring) was that if a fighter lost the first rounds but finished well on top in the last rounds, this was seen as more important and they could get the decision based on this in some circumstances (i could be corrected from some posters on this, but i think it is right in some circumstances). Fitz new the rules and he elected to take some punches to change Jim's style and create openings. Would Sugar Ray be baited into going for a KO and underestimating Fitz' power also? And dont forget that Corbett surely had a better chin than Sugar Ray.

 

If Robinson were as big as Corbett, he wins easy. But he was really a natural welterweight who grew into a smallish middle. Corbett was 6' 1" or perhaps a trifle taller, and 183 lbs. That is about a 25 pound weight pull, and the film shows that Corbett was plenty fast on his feet. He didn't throw combinations like Robinson, but I think hit harder punch for punch and was obviously physically stronger, and yet Fitz pushes him around on the film.

Do you think Robinson beats Corbett? I don't, but Fitz had the physical power and the punch to do it. Size matters and Fitz was a really freakily strong man at 160, and both off his record and the testimony of everyone who watched him, one of the all-time freaky punchers, if not the absolute freakiest.

 

One more thing, it isnt a given that Sugar Ray was faster than Corbett (though he probably was). Corbett was one of the fastest ever. Although he heavier, he may have still been faster. One of the old documentaries does a frame by frame comparing the jabs of Ali and Robinson. Ali was the faster, apparently. Corbett was the Ali of his time and he was cnsidered the fastest fighter ever at his time (on my understanding at least) i think that Robinson was probably faster but there probably wouldnt be as much in it as you think. Certainly, Corbett was an awful lot quicker than todays heavyweights who are considered speedsters. Fitz could deal with the speed, and i doubt that Robinson could tie Fitz up in the clinch and do damage in close like corbett could.

 

Also, let us not forget that Robinson has never fought a fighter with the punching power Fitzsimmons possesses. Though his chin held up fine vs his competition, it's important to remember that Fitzsimmons' 1 punch power is significantly above and beyond what the Sugar Man's been hit with.

 

Alot of these hypotheticals are like comparing apples and oranges...A match-up between two fighters of such contrasting eras as Robinson and Fitz is even more so.

Boilermaker and OF have made somewhat convincing arguements by stating that Fitz would carry far too much power for Robinson to contend with because Fitz was able to stand in with, and legitimately KO much larger men. This is a viable point in as much that Robinson wouldn't be able to duplicate the same feats. Bottom line when Fitz is able to set and deliver he is lethal. Is he capable of KOing Robinson? Anyone at 160 lbs? Yes and yes...But would he?... I don't think so...

There is a major difference in hitting a dynamic target moving away from you, which
Robinson would be, as compared to the more static (heavier and slower) targets Fitz enjoyed his success against.

I've enjoyed reading up more on Fitz, and it is apparent that he is a cunning strategist in the ring. The details of his fights with Ruhlin and Sharkey tell of give and take battles with liberal amounts of punishment given and taken...Could Robinson hang with the heavies? Nope...But this is a middleweight fight, not a heavyweight fight. Fitz is the bigger, stronger, and harder hitting fighter. But if you were to go by that logic, WHY did Dempsey last into the thrirteenth round after being dominated from the very start of their fight, and Fitz knocking Dempsey down seven times in the eleventh round!!! Why is it that Fitz wasn't able to get Dempsey out of ther sooner following such a devastating performance? No doubt Dempsey was a great fighter during the time.. but was he more durable than Sharkey? Perhaps power does not translate quite the same when fighting different targets(?)

The arguement that Robinson and Corbett are similar stylistically? Personally, I do not see the similaritites.

As stated before, I believe when Fitz is set to deliver, he is a devastating hitter. His style is linear, and he is conditioned to explode forward into his power punches. But how does that power translate to a moving target or a target who is not even in position for him to hit?

During the Fitzsimmon's shift, Fitz would lead with a straight right or right hook, either hitting or knocking down the defense of the opponent, Fitz's right foot quickly then goes to the outside of the opponent's left foot, and Fitz shifts his entire bodyweight and unloads a brutal punch to the body and often follows up with the same left to the head (if necessary). Fitzsimmons entire style is predicated on setting and delivering. A very grounded style.

In order to win, Robinson would have to gauge distance and be wary of Fitz's right hand and the possible shift...The right hand of Fitz is the tell tale sign to either back out, or move to the left (Robinson's left) away from the shift. Once avoiding the shift, Robinson could possibly score his combinations then get out, while Fitz would have to reset. By moving towards the left, Robinson will likely nullify Fitz's shifts and force him to box with him.

Robinson's mobility and his positioning are the keys to a decision win.

A vote for Robinson.

 

dpw417---You make a good case. Where I would disagree with you is in assuming Robinson could keep this going for 15 rounds. I think Fitz scores to the body and saps Robinson's strength and speed, as he did those of the much larger Corbett. I see Fitz eventually scoring a ko.

 

He won't be weighing much less, if at all. This is a MW matchup.

Hearns was very lanky, Monzon was heavier but also of the same general build. Both are lanky, Fitz was in the same boat as them, therefore Fitz is lanky.

I'm struggling to find if this is a serious comment. That's probably the first time I've ever heard anyone out Hearns's strength in such high regard. A massive size and strength advantage over Leonard? I think you meant Robinson, either way you're way off base.

If that's the way you want to look at it. I don't see things that way, I'm simply looking at the matchup in realistic terms. I wouldn't have even responded to this thread if not for your post.

C'mon now.

His defense looked anything but tight, and his punches anything but straight in the footage I've viewed.

Poor film quality just lessens the viewing experience. It doesn't give the fighter poor form and technique, which is what Fitz shows in all of the footage available, along with pretty much every other fighter of the era.

I'm not sure if he was in the Jeffries class as a hitter, but I can guarantee you if Fitz were to take on any of the men you just mentioned he'd have been out as quickly as Ray. I do not buy for one second that his punching power is on that level. The Heavyweights that he took on were neither as big nor as advanced as any of the ones listed barring Jeffries.

Who the hell signed the terms to that agreement? Robinson has the power to worry anyone that has ever fought at the weight. He also clearly had the durability and skill-set needed to hang with any MW, regardless of their strength or power. I believe a first rate composite puncher like Robinson is far more dangerous than a sluggish, un-skilled mauler like the fighters Fitz was taking on.

And who did he beat during that period?

Different eras breed different results. I can guarantee you 100% that he wouldn't have been doing anything of the sort in Ray's era.

Hell, I'd favor all the ones that beat Robinson if we're being straight up.

Again, he was not facing anywhere near the same level of opposition as these guys at MW. His claim to fame at the weight was his win over a smaller, already fading Nonpareil Jack Dempsey. Otherwise, his only other top win at the weight was over Don Creedon.

Not really, at all. Having a long reign where you hardly face any MW's or name fighters (or fight that often in general) doesn't count for **** in my book.

 

Does anyone serious think Sugar Ray Robinson would ever lose to a man in a thong?

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On a more serious note imagine what will happen to the right side of Fitzsimons face when he tries to do this to avoid a Robinson Left hook.

 

I calls em' the ways I sees em'...You calls em' the ways you sees em'...Cheers Fogey.