Who does Wlad beat against these old time Heavyweights?

Where`s the `he beats none` option ?

 

Nah, I voted for Marciano only due to there being too much size difference but Wlad still might not win that one.

Rocky & Frazier are his best chances of victory IMO but I wouldnt bet either way.

 

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:-(

 

How da F**K can there not be a NONE option?

 

Oh yeah, 'cause Ali was invincible, right?

The post asked one simple question. Find me an opponent, just ONE opponent, from ANY of the listed ATG's resumes who combines monster size, speed, technical ability, power, heart and discipline the way Wlad does. Just one.

I'll give you a hint. There isn't a man like that on ANY of their records.

Wlad doesn't have a great chin, and sometimes he is over-cautious. Fine. When he fights to shut the other guy out of the contest, as he has become GREAT at doing, he is going to be VERY difficult for anyone to beat.

He can be stopped, sure. But he can also be dropped hard, get up and keep fighting. There is no quit in Wlad, he can be in big trouble and then win the next round on all cards.

I don't say that Wlad stomps all the ATGs. But to say that he has NO CHANCE against ANY of them? That's just straight hating. They were saying the same things about Holmes and Lennox at the equivalent stage of their careers too, you know.

:hat

 

Hello from the Classic forum. At various times, I've been on either end of the Klitschko/old fighter debate. This is a lot closer than many give it credit for.

Against Ali, his jab, left hook, and long reach may cause some trouble. Ali seemed to get hit with left hooks from time to time, and Norton's jab consistently backed him up. Ali also doesn't have the power to blitz Wlad's weak chin like many other ATG's do...but he can stop him on accumulation. I'd pick Ali, but Wlad is one of those fighters who could give him more trouble than most.

Tyson destroys him. Wlad doesn't handle pressure (when combined with power, head movement, and handspeed) very well and Tyson excelled at beating guys with Wlad's style anyway. Moreover, Klitschko lacks a good, consistent uppercut.

Louis worries me a bit. True, he destroyed the likes of Baer, Simon, and Carnera, but these guys weren't in Klitschko's league except in size. Louis might have a bit of trouble with Klitschko's long right. His chin isn't top-notch either. Nevertheless, I'd have to go (with some reservations) with Louis.

Holmes easily beats Klitschko.

Lewis may also beat him if he blitzes Wlad a la Golota. I'd give Lewis a 70-30 shot, although both men risk a knockout loss here.

Frazier's close, but he beats Wlad for two reasons. First, Wlad lacks the uppercut. Second, Wlad takes a while to warm up these days (in contrast to his prime), which cancels out Frazier's window of vulnerability in the early rounds. Over 12 rounds, though, Frazier would have less time to stop Klitschko or grind him down to a points victory.

Liston is a quandary. His lack of handspeed, even in his prime, worries me. He has a solid but not uncrackable chin, despite destroying Cleveland Williams. Very hard puncher, though perhaps not in Wlad or Foreman's league. I do wonder how well he'd knock out 200+ pound heavyweights. Wlad may well win this one.

He beats Marciano. Sad to say, size does matter at a certain point. Marciano probably beats Valuev, for what it's worth.

 

:huh

Lewis didn't beat any large, skilled heavyweights?

 

:good

:hat

 

Lewis is the only one. I guess I overlooked him, focusing more on the '60s and '70s crop of fighters.

:hat

 

I have watched most of Ali's major fights, including his narrow escape over Doug Jones, and Dundee's gamesmanship to save him against Henry Cooper.

Go back and watch Ali's fights again. You will see a LOT of clinching. A LOT of fancy-pants showboating, a LOT of baiting his opponents to get them off their gameplan.

Ali can't choose to fight Wlad at his own pace. He can't take a breather when he feels like it, as he did with almost all his opponents. If he clinches all the time, Wlad will lean all over him and wear him out. If he stays on the outside, Wlad will pile up points with the jab. If he tries the rope-a-dope, Wlad is too smart and disciplined to fall for that.

I just can't believe that Ken Norton can get the better of Ali over two fights. Little midget Doug Jones can push him close over 10 rounds. Henry Cooper can drop Ali on his ass and potentially be gypped out of a stoppage by Dundee's gamesmanship. 5'11 Joe Frazier, dropped 6 times in 2 rounds by Foreman, can soak up 14 rounds of Ali constantly punching his face and then stop Ali.

Yet Olympic gold medallist Wlad, who is more powerful, more athletic and more technically skilled than any of these men, and who is a GIANT compared to any of them (Foreman included) has NO CHANCE against Ali, at ALL, under ANY circumstances?

Bull****.

Ali "would probably beat Wlad on heart and chin alone"??

What the **** does that even mean?

He spends 12 rounds getting jabs, hooks and straight rights to the head, but hears the final bell and is thus victorious?

Wlad's not going to fall for the rope-a-dope, he's not going to get frustrated with chasing a dancing Ali around the ring, and if Ali cuts the distance, Wlad will lean all over him, muscle him around and wear him out by the halfway point.

I don't say Wlad WILL win. But to say Wlad CANNOT win, that is just plain stupid, and if you really believe that, then you are a true moron, and you need to go back and start learning about boxing again. No-one - NO-ONE - in boxing is invincible, and that includes Muhammed Ali. And just because you don't like a guy, that doesn't mean he is a bum.

:hat

 

Generally agreed. However...

Foreman, if he'd trained with weights during his prime, would have been the same size as a lot of Lewis's largest opponents. Heck, he could eat 50 big macs, gain 25 pounds of fat, and end up heavier with a lower bodyfat percentage than Samuel Peter. Ditto Norton.

Tyson also beat some good fighters close to that size, come to think of it. Bruno, Ruddock, and Golota all qualify. He beat all of them past his prime, too.

There may be a couple other guys I missed. I'll keep thinking.

 

And with respect, Foreman, Norton, Bruno, Ruddock, Golota, not a one of them is as tall as Wlad is, nor as good at fighting tall. In fact, most of them, Foreman included, aren't even close to Wlad size, and if they wanted to get to Wlad's weight, they would carry a lot of excess weight, which Wlad doesn't.

There's a hell of a difference between fighting a guy who is 6'3", and one who is 6'7". Especially if the 6'7" guy also knows how to use his height, is good at dictating the pace of the contest, and just happens to be a tremendously fast and powerful all-around athlete.

:hat

 

Mostly because Holmes has a few assets that Ali didn't that make it easier to win this particular fight.

First, Wlad's chin is a little weaker than Norton's, so Holmes has a better chance of hurting him if he tries to pressure Larry. Second, Holmes has the uppercut on the inside, which would be a hassle for Klitschko when he tries to clinch. Then there's the fact that Holmes' jab is a lot harder than Ali's. Movement alone--from a tall rangy fighter--might trouble Wlad because of Klitschko's often sloppy footwork, but movement alone isn't going to beat him. What we need is a harder-hitting Ali. Holmes fits the bill rather nicely.

Agreed on the short punches--they're surprisingly fast. But is Liston strong enough to shrug Klitschko off in the clinches to land them as he did against Patterson and Cleveland Williams?

On the other hand, Liston's tendency to leave the jab hanging is an open invitation for a very nasty Klitschko right hand. A lot of this is going to be decided on how much Liston's chin, power, and strength carry over against larger heavyweights. (less his power than the other two attributes, however, since Wlad's chin isn't very good).

 

True, but Foreman and Golota were both listed as 6'4" during the 90's, and Klitschko's closer to 6'6" than 6'7". Foreman's a couple hairs taller than Ali, so the measurement seems about right. Give 70's Foreman weight training and he could easily be 6'4" 245 lbs, which was about what Golota weighed.

Klitschko is abnormally tall for a heavyweight (in any era), but he's not abnormally large as far as his frame goes. He is very athletic and skilled for a man his size.

(Incidentally, Terrell is 6'6" and Ali had no trouble landing on him. He wasn't nearly as heavy as Klitschko, though).