Do you love Muhammad Ali? If so why so and if not why not?

I suppose it was simply another case of the fghter not wanting to let go. Maybe he feared fading away from people's memories...who knows?

 

Moth to the flame syndrome. Boxing was where he did his thing. The perfect time for him to have gone was after Zaire.

 

Precisely, it's infuriating.

Not a week went by back when I was a student did I not see a Ali poster on some common room/lounge wall or in some hall room. Thats all very well and I liked seeing it, but I learnt to bite my tongue when these poster bearers would tell me that he was the best ever, no one was remotely close to him in history and yes, he was never beaten :yep - (except by one guy chris who was in my hall that said ali only lost to one man, Tyson :twisted:, of course I had to do the right thing and share some knowledge with this character)

True, my great grandma back in the day when I was wee used to love him, speak about him, say he was the best, didnt have a clue about other boxing other than the Scots contingent, and best of all, was deeply racist against blacks due to her upbringing in secluded Scotland. And thats the best bit, it didnt matter he was black to her, not one bit, because he was Ali.

This sums the man up after all that though.

 

You know, we all get smarter with age. We're able to sort out truth from the false perceptions we had in our youth. This is the natural order of maturing, this is the final stage of our personal philosophy. But ... when our final act is stolen from us due to fault of our own or not, then all we are left with and all we leave is the song that we had on repeat when we left the house. I wonder how Ali would have balanced his views for our consideration in his old age. We are judging him largely by his impressionable, headstrong youth.

How would we feel about him if he'd had the chance to correct himself and communicate those views, if we believe that he's grown.

 

For those keying on Ali's rant against intermarriage and interbreeding, ask yourselves this ... If for hundreds of years the majority race that you and your minority race share a country with, had consistently cordoned you and yours off into segregated neighborhoods, had shunned your race to the point that any sexual contact with you by one of their females was seen as her kiss of death, had treated you like you were unclean to the point that they had to give you your own water fountains would you then not get to the point where you said, Well, **** you then. You don't want me, you don't want to sit next to me at a lunch counter, you have made generations of my people feel like there is something wrong with us to the point that it's imbedded in our cultural character, part of who we are now, how we see ourselves, something that will take as many generations going as it's been coming, then no, you're right, we don't want to marry you either. If that doesn't move you, put in these simple terms ... You've been trying to convince a dame for weeks that you are the one for her and vice versa. But she just won't go. If you're anything like me sooner or later your pride kicks in, right?

 

You'd want him to quit before Zaire? That would have been very anticlimatic. Or did you perhaps mean after Manilla?

IMO he should have retired after Zaire at the earliest and after Manilla at the latest.

 

No particular hate or love for the man outside the ring.

 

Bingo.

All aside, I can't justify everything. Ali's actions never showed he believed anything about space shape Aliens. He treated the whites around him fairly. It's a reactionary position. Join the NAI is radical but a position I can understand.

 

Could you expand on this? It would've been more appropriate if you called me on this directly and on the topic, but now i'm too curious not to ask, especially considering i've repeatedly quoted and even posted articles and other primary sources of the time.




Ali's behaviour in one word can be described as dualism. He'd always say one thing and do the other. He'd say he was going to dance circles around Foreman, but did the most extreme opposite. He'd make statement about women that shouldn't wear short skirt, but would cheat on his wife and be a womanizer in general. He often said blatantly racist things, but you'll often see him treat white individuals nicely.

I recently saw a Dutch documentary from a visit in 1976, when he was promoting an autobiography that was released here. He was very generous and nice to Rudi Lubbers (a white man), and saying that Rudy would be champ after he retired, but in a funny way. Brilliant stuff.

 

Obviously not, therefore my opinion would be invalid/void as well.

It's an autobiography. What autobiography isn't biased? Is Joe Frazier's autobiography not skewed?

What does this have to do with anything? You seem to think that grabbing at sources validates an opinion. In the end it's an opinion. I haven't seen you do any referencing in this thread either way. So what does that have to do with your position? What is your position again? Love and hate Ali? You barely explained why, I just sense a tone of dislike for the man when you mention him. That's what started this whole charade. You couldn't take that so you start mentioning members here that would disagree. WHO GIVES A **** about these testimonials, members, and references. You always are trying to validate what you believe or have to say. I've never seen such a pathetic defensive oriented poster before.

There is nothing I can source to further validate my opinion. What do I know about Ali? His autobiography, a biography that I believe James Lipton wrote (I can search amazon to further remember the title. I read it awhile ago) and all the films I've seen of him. Documentaries, etc. Some would include the Ali Rap, Ali Dozen, Ali Ringside, Ali ABC Documentary, Thrilla in Manilla, etc.

These sources are opinions. So you're using an opinion to further validate your opinion. Good job :good .

It's no suprise nor coincidence that Dempsey's hardest critics are non-Americans. I can admit American loves him. I can admit American are biased on Dempsey. I can also understand the complicated racial situations in America. You seem to oversimplify these things and their context. You just take A fighter avoided B fighter when there is far more to it. Whether it's reasonable is justifiable and debatable. But 1910's race-related sports aren't comparable to more modern day situations.

I'll give you another example. Did you see the Documentary that came out on HBO Called Assault in the Ring? Having a perspective that showed little sympathy or understanding would be saying that Resto is mostly to blame. He wore the gloves while knowing something was happening, and he kept going and furthering punishing his opponent unfairly. I could bash and bash Lou. However, my perspective would be rather oversimplistic to a more complicated matter. Resto is a boxer. Boxers fight to win. In order to win they pummel the other fighter without getting pummeled. That's boxing in its simplest form. Resto did what most boxers would do. Lewis put him in an uncomfortable and akward position. He's at his moment to win. He's shot has come and he will do what he is told and what his corner told him. That's what boxers are supposed to do. Now, the conscious should come in to play. Most observers and outsiders would say "WHY DIDN't he stop. Saying something was wrong with his gloves." The police man asked the same thing to Resto. Resto said, "Because boxers don't quit. We do what our trainer tells us to do. We keep going on."

Some may consider Resto a scapegoat, a victim in his own right. Others might slander him and criticism him mercilessly. A lot of non-boxing fans to hear the story would wonder why he didn't stop and just tell the ref. His sons wonder the same thing... his sons said he would that if he it were truth.

How haven't I. How have you shown more? How have I shown little understanding? And not you?

I don't even know your opinion. You're the one really trying to find something to argue at this point. I don't think you have a balanced perspective on the subject. I'm saying some people need to understand context and be realistic with their opinions. I'm saying judge slowly, that is all. Exactly the opposite. Study more, criticize less. You can't put your thoughts, your mind, and say this and this is wrong. Morality isn't absolute in these circumstances. Ali did a lot of good and some wrong. We can criticize things, but we should at the very least have an understanding of WHY he would join the NIA and what he experienced and how they shaped his beliefs and why he reacted to things.

You can

but...

"but I know how I would react if a preacher told me aliens were going to come down in spaceships (currenly in orbit, no less), pick me up and take me to the promised land whilst the other races of the earth were consumed by holocost because they are less than human.

I would tell him to **** off."

Can you really absolute put your own I perspective on the subject? And we don't know to what lengths Ali believed these details. Can you prove he did? I think he just believed the core message that NIA offered to the black man.

No, but it seems that most of the Americans have more understanding of the context of the situation because they have a better understanding of the times in America. Do you have an understanding of this cultural time? To what extent? I don't even know your absolute opinion on this entire subject, but it seems that your opinion comes from a perspective that lacks a little bit of understanding on this subject... or at least believed these justifications and reasons are overstated. That's fine. I just think the more you know and understand of Ali's position and situation the less you would be so critical. I'm critical, more so for his actions than anything else. But I comprehend his situation and mindset and why he came to all of that...

 

Alright. I respect your opinion greatly as I do McGrain. I know you guys are far more informed than me on most boxing related subjects, especially pre 1930's fighters (Specifically the fighters in and of themselves).

I made a post about it in the thread. I thought people in general were being too hard on Dempsey, I've noticed that most of the people who seemed hardest on Dempsey were non-Americans. I also noticed that more of a percentage of them had a unfavorably position on him as a fighter. I can understand this. However, I just feel it's no coincidence that Americans give him a bit more leniency on the race-related subjects dealing with the color line and fighting black fighters. I'm not saying he shouldn't get criticized, nor am I saying his legacy isn't tarnished for him. I'm just saying that there should be some understanding as to why that would more likely happen during Dempsey's time rather than years following. People can label it an excuse. They're entitled to that. I however do think it's quite that simple. For example, I like Bummy's position on Dempsey.

Now let me ask you. Do you think it's a concidence that the hardest critics of Dempsey are non-American? Both come from different perspectives. I feel Americans are somewhat biased towards the man (He has a fanbase) while I do feel that Americans understand the complicated race relations that happened in this country better than non-American do, thus aren't as flat out negative towards this part of his legacy.

That's incredibly accurate and fair of a statement. Maybe he was internally conflicted the NIA and it's radical teachings. His actions and words don't compound to each other as closely as they should. A lot of people say one thing and do another, but Ali seemed to be another level with this. Now, I particular like your assessment.

If it's any constellation I think non-Americans are more fair toward rating Harry Willis. But at the same time that's why they're harder on Dempsey. The first is more fair though.

 

Alright. I respect Bummy's position on Dempsey as well, even if it's different from me. :good The man has deep knowledge of the game and particularly New York's boxing scene in the 70's-80's.

To be honest, i've never noticed a clear correlation between Dempsey critics and nationality. There are several knowledgeable American posters, for instance, OLD FOGEY, who have made a few critical yet nuanced notes on Jack's career. And on the other side, for instance, there is janitor who is British, and usually has a good argument in favor of Dempsey.


But even if what you say is true, then i'd consider it an enrichment rather than a demotion, to see both sides of the coin. And then there are plenty who are on the fence.

As much as i like Ali, he wasn't the smartest of men.... in terms of IQ-smartness, anyway. He even admitted as much himself. The NOI used him, but that doesn't erase the fact that he has made blatantly racist comments. Even if he didn't really believe it or didn't act like it (which is the case, in fact), he still said those words.

It's actually interesting to draw a parrallel here --- because of the media's endless Ali blessing, Frazier seems to have become a bit of a scapegoat, with the Thrilla in Manilla constantly shown, but their most important first fight almost boycotted.

The same, in a sense, is true about Wills: People love Dempsey and don't want to hear about severe holes in his resume or career, and as a consequence, Wills is pushed to the background. The man has every right to be in the top15, arguably top12, but rarely even rates in "historians" top20's.

 

I think ChrisP speaks a lot of sense. I think Ali has to take reponsibility for vile things he said as a grown man, but I also think it wasn't a true expression of his character (which, in a way, makes it even more embarassing for him).

But I do think that the reason FOTC is not shown has to with owner's right more than anything else. I'm pretty sure ESPN doesn't have the rights to it.

 

I love Ali because, imo, he brought sports to the frontline. He made your average man & woman want to participate in sports, rather than just live the life of work, then go home, etc. He not only put Boxing on the map, but sports in general!

IMO, he's without question the greatest sports person in history. If he was around today, he would be receiving more money than any other sports person, he would have commercials coming out of his ass. He would be an amazing commodity. Forget about guys like Tiger Woods, David Beckham, etc.

Ali was a wonderful boxer, a great entertainer & someone who made you laugh! I've seen footage of him visiting Hatton's gym yesterday & I was very sad seeing him like that! As much as I love Boxing, he did fight on way too long & consequently, then results are there for us all to witness! Ali should have packed in it after Frazier 3, certainly after Norton 3, that's for sure!

His voice, his quotes, his legend, etc, will live on forever! Ali is boxing. If you ask your average person on the street to name a boxer past or present, they will either say Tyson or Ali!